0:00

If you're a rat in a lab and

0:02

you use LSD, the

0:04

experience that you have would probably be

0:07

so all-encompassing that you cannot fathom using

0:09

it again. You're in a lab. Imagine,

0:15

there are these giant monkeys making

0:17

you walk through mazes, and

0:19

now you take LSD for the first time and you're like,

0:21

what does a maze mean? Like, where am I going?

0:23

Why do I like cheese so much? What

0:25

is it that drives me? And now you're seeing

0:27

the universe for the first time, you're thinking about

0:29

cats in a completely different way. If

0:32

I was a rat in a lab, I'd be like, I don't know,

0:34

I need to chill on this. I

0:36

just need to think about my life a little bit

0:38

more. This

0:44

is What Now with Trevor

0:47

Noah. This

0:50

episode is brought to you by Atlassian.

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smartest way to hire Do

2:51

you think do you think this could be

2:53

the first topic where We

2:55

don't agree at all. Yes, which has made

2:58

me like afraid, huh? Yeah,

3:00

cuz normally There's

3:02

some overlap or I

3:04

can even see where you're coming from. Oh, you you

3:06

don't even think you'll be okay, but wait wait, so

3:09

Help me understand this. Yeah, we say we're gonna

3:12

have a top. We're gonna have a conversation We're

3:14

gonna we're gonna be speaking to Michael Pollan. He

3:17

has single-handedly changed

3:21

the perception of Of

3:24

I mean like millions and millions of people when

3:26

it comes to psychedelics and it didn't it's not

3:28

only psychedelics You know, he wrote the omnivore's dilemma

3:32

this is your mind on plants how to change

3:34

your mind and He's

3:36

written beautiful accounts of how we

3:39

see the world of what we take

3:42

one of my favorite books of his just even talks about How

3:45

we see coffee versus how we

3:47

see something like taking, you know

3:49

Mushrooms or marijuana and he goes

3:51

coffee It's

3:53

just it's a drug that has suited the

3:55

establishment. And so that's why it's allowed to

3:58

to stay around so he's explored everything But

4:00

it's interesting how now and we'll talk to

4:02

him a little bit about it is it's

4:04

like now he has become the de facto

4:06

go to Guy on

4:09

mushrooms and psychedelics and you

4:11

know, and yes, it's funny you say he's

4:13

the guru But he's not even trying to present himself as

4:15

a girl. He's not because I'm a journalist Like

4:21

you are the guru where do I

4:23

score myself some dope shrooms? Yeah,

4:26

but it's funny you I've never seen you

4:28

recoil like this I know I know and

4:30

I've been thinking about it even

4:32

I may have prayed about it. Oh, wow

4:34

Yeah, I was just like I don't want

4:36

people at home To

4:38

think like I'm like this lock them

4:40

up conservatives about people. Okay recreational drugs.

4:43

Okay, but I may be a little

4:45

bit Okay. No, I think

4:47

it just it brings up some stuff

4:49

for me. Is this is this because of your upbringing?

4:51

because for me like I think about growing

4:54

up and my perception of drugs

4:57

So I didn't touch

5:00

weed my whole I've okay, so I'll

5:02

even take it before even like drugs

5:04

drugs My mom doesn't

5:06

drink. My mom doesn't smoke. My dad doesn't drink. My dad

5:08

doesn't smoke. All right so I grew up in a home

5:10

way that wasn't a thing my grandmother etc and my

5:14

mom said to me when I was 13

5:18

12 13 Maybe

5:20

even younger. She came to

5:22

my room and she

5:24

had cigarettes and she had beer

5:28

and she said to me Do you

5:30

want and and I

5:32

was like, oh, this is a trap? Obviously, this

5:35

is a trap and I was almost disappointed and

5:37

I was like, come on lady Trap

5:39

like that. You're gonna come into my room and offer me

5:41

cigarettes and she was like, do you want do you want

5:43

to try them? And I was like, no because these are

5:45

bad things and we shouldn't have and then she said to

5:47

me listen You're gonna you're

5:50

gonna encounter alcohol you're gonna encounter cigarettes and things

5:52

So if you're gonna use it, I would rather

5:54

know that you use it and

5:56

then you use it at home Yeah, and then I

5:58

don't worry that now you're out the world,

6:01

using it, hiding

6:03

it from me and then getting into situations

6:05

where you can't share that you're using it.

6:07

Harm reduction. Exactly. It's

6:10

amazing. Which is wild. My mom is

6:12

super religious and super strict and super-

6:14

Very progressive. Yeah. And

6:16

so then she didn't even know how to light

6:18

a cigarette. So we have to go to an

6:21

uncle of mine and then he was

6:23

like, Trevor, what's up? And she said he wants to try

6:25

cigarettes. And the guy was like, okay, you want to smoke?

6:27

And he gave us the cigarettes and I puffed with him

6:29

and I was like, this is trash. This

6:32

is so, I was like, how is the taste

6:34

in your mouth? You know

6:36

what I mean? It tastes like someone's like

6:39

eating everything disgusting and then farting it into

6:41

your oral cavity. And

6:44

then the alcohol beer just tastes like

6:46

old water that has dribbled down a

6:48

sewer into- I'm a bad Brit. I

6:51

don't like it. So I didn't like any of

6:53

that. And then drugs was almost in the same

6:55

category for me. Because of that initial experience. Yeah.

6:58

In fact, drugs, the way I

7:00

grew up was you are a loser.

7:03

You are going to end your life. That's how

7:06

I knew drugs. That hasn't changed now though. Just

7:08

when you- That's how I knew drugs. That's

7:10

all I was told. These are the things that will happen when you take

7:12

drugs. So I didn't touch weed. I smoked weed for the first time when

7:14

I was 21. That's

7:16

how anti-drug- I used to judge

7:19

people and I would look at them and I

7:21

would say to them, it is a pity

7:23

that you've chosen to do this with your life. I used to say that

7:25

to my cousin. So I can see

7:27

where you might come from. Okay. Yeah.

7:30

I think it's all of those things and a

7:32

bit more. All right. But

7:35

yeah, I just- Are you open

7:37

to a conversation about it? I'm open to

7:39

a conversation. And I think the thing that

7:41

bothers me about this, I'm sad I'm not

7:43

nuanced because I pride myself. I'm

7:47

being like, gray area, nuance, both sides is

7:49

in more mode. And on this I'm like,

7:51

ah, no, no, no, no, no, no. The

7:55

African mom has finally arrived. The African

7:58

mom has just emerged and is just-

8:00

here, but, and

8:02

the more I seem to read, the deeper I

8:04

go into know. That's why I'm really curious about

8:06

today's conversation. Oh, that's an

8:08

interesting one. Michael, welcome to

8:11

the podcast. But like, let

8:14

me ask you this. Do you think, or

8:16

do you find that

8:19

people become more open

8:21

to the idea of exploring even

8:23

the idea of psychedelics when they

8:25

read, or do you find that

8:27

people become more closed off? I

8:31

find when people read,

8:33

they do become more open. There are a

8:35

couple of things that make people more open.

8:37

And by the way, Christiana, I'm not going

8:39

to advocate you do anything. I'm

8:41

going to advocate for that.

8:44

That's what Travis here for. I'm going

8:46

to advocate. It's perfectly okay

8:48

not to do these drugs. When

8:51

I started talking about this, right

8:53

when my book came out and I

8:55

was talking to various groups of people,

8:58

and I would notice when I spoke

9:00

in positive terms about psychedelics, I found

9:02

that unless I started talking about risk

9:04

right at the beginning, there was always

9:07

a person or two in the room

9:09

before I said anything more

9:11

about it. This person would

9:14

not open her ears. So

9:17

I learned in my conversations where I'm,

9:19

I was trying to get a hearing

9:21

for what have turned out to be

9:23

some therapeutically really important substances.

9:27

And the key was, let's

9:29

talk about risk right at the beginning.

9:31

Can you get addicted to these substances?

9:34

Can you overdose on these substances? Because

9:36

I came very late. I

9:39

didn't use a psychedelic until I was in my late fifties.

9:42

I was somebody who, with a family and

9:45

lots of responsibilities, and I did a lot of

9:48

investigation. Well, how dangerous are these

9:50

things? And I found

9:52

that on the classical psychedelics, and it's

9:54

important to define what we're talking about,

9:57

LSD, mushrooms, or psilocybin.

10:00

siben, DMT, but

10:02

not ketamine and not MDMA.

10:06

These are not technically psychedelics.

10:09

There is no recorded lethal

10:11

dose. That's quite

10:13

remarkable because you have

10:15

drugs in your medicine cabinet. If

10:18

you have Tylenol, that is lethal at about 17

10:20

pills. But

10:22

before we get into

10:25

that, Michael, I love

10:27

the idea of speaking about risk first. I've

10:31

actually seen you do this in more

10:34

than one setting. My favorite encounter with

10:36

Michael and watching this in real life,

10:38

was we were at an event where

10:40

it was myself, Michael, and

10:43

then Oprah Winfrey, Gayle

10:46

King, and Eva Duveney. This

10:50

is like a weird motley crew of people who

10:52

found themselves around a table. I

10:55

don't know if it was Oprah or Eva

10:57

who starts off and says, you're

11:00

the mushroom guy. I'm

11:03

like, oh yeah, mushrooms, it's amazing, this whole thing.

11:06

I'll never forget, the more I was speaking, I thought

11:08

I was convincing people. Oprah's

11:10

face got more and more concerned. Gayle

11:13

looked at me with more and more compassion. You know

11:15

how Gayle is. Gayle looked at me like, oh

11:17

Trevor, do we need to call somebody? Eva

11:20

looked like the cops were about to

11:22

swarm in. It was

11:24

interesting to watch because when Michael started speaking,

11:26

the first thing you spoke about was risk.

11:28

The first thing you talked about was, hey,

11:31

you cannot guarantee any outcome. You've got

11:33

to be worried about your physical, the

11:35

physical aspect. You've got, and I

11:38

watched them slowly turn their bodies from

11:40

the outside of a conversation, back

11:43

to the inside of the conversation. And

11:45

so maybe we can talk a little bit about

11:48

that aspect. So what are the risks then? If

11:51

you cannot overdose, what are like, for

11:54

somebody like Christiana who's going like this, you

11:56

guys are putting yourself at so much risk,

11:58

what are the actual risks? risks. Well, if

12:00

you use, if you put LSD in one

12:03

of those classic setups with a rat given

12:05

two levers to press, you know, and it

12:07

administers a drug to its veins with

12:10

amphetamines, cocaine, they will press that

12:12

lever until they're addicted and they

12:14

die. If you put LSD in

12:17

that setup, they'll try it once and never

12:19

again. Oh, wow. That

12:21

doesn't sound like an endorsement. No, it's

12:23

not. No, thanks. Well,

12:28

I mean, imagine being a rat and trying

12:30

to interpret what's going on. We don't know

12:32

what kind of experience they have. There's actually

12:34

a study underway to try to figure out

12:36

if rats and mice have

12:39

the sort of mental, you

12:41

know, hallucination. All we know

12:43

now is they head twitch when they take

12:45

LSD. And that's not very

12:47

useful for research. So those are, so

12:49

no risk of addiction. Yeah. No

12:52

risk of overdose. The risks are of a

12:54

psychotic break. I mean, there are people who

12:57

have a psychotic experience. Sometimes

13:00

it's just, it looks like a psychotic

13:02

experience and it's just a panic attack.

13:05

There's a wonderful story that Dr.

13:07

Andrew Weill tells about working in the

13:09

Haight-Ashbury free clinic in 1968 as

13:12

a young newly minted doctor who

13:15

had had a lot of experience with psychedelics. And

13:18

the doctors were all saying people are coming in, you

13:20

know, having LSD

13:22

induced psychosis. Yeah. And he goes into

13:24

a little examining room and there's somebody

13:26

who's absolutely flipping out and he takes

13:28

a few notes and then he says,

13:31

well, you excuse me, there's someone in

13:33

real trouble in the next room. And

13:36

as soon as he said that, this person realized,

13:38

wow, I'm not so fucked up as I thought

13:40

I was. There's somebody more fucked up than me

13:42

and they were fine.

13:45

So he understood what was going on in

13:47

a way that the other doctors didn't. But

13:50

people do flip out and these

13:52

experiences can be mitigated, I think.

13:54

If you work with a guide,

13:56

I'm someone who's with you to

13:58

talk to you. you down when

14:01

this kind of thing happens. But without

14:03

question, the bad trip is real, and

14:05

it can be absolutely terrifying. And that,

14:08

as Trevor said earlier, the effects cannot be

14:10

predicted. There's a kind of a physiological

14:13

signature to alcohol or cocaine.

14:15

That's not true with psychedelics.

14:18

Everybody has their own experience.

14:20

And a lot of

14:22

it depends, as Timothy Leary famously said,

14:24

on set and setting, that you've got

14:26

to be in the right mindset and

14:28

you need to be in a very

14:30

safe setting where you're not worried about

14:32

the FedEx driver coming to the door

14:36

or a call from your mother. Michael, let me

14:38

ask you this. I

14:40

distinctly remember, and it's purely anecdotal, how

14:44

the conversation

14:46

around weed, cannabis, marijuana, whatever

14:48

you want to call it, changed when

14:50

white American moms started smoking it. All

14:52

of a sudden America was like, actually,

14:54

maybe it's not so bad. Tell me

14:56

more, Snoop Doggy Dogg. You know what

14:58

I mean? It started changing. Well,

15:00

how to change your mind, my book about it

15:03

was in 2018. And at that point, there were

15:08

lots of people who were using psychedelics but would

15:10

never talk about it publicly. And

15:12

one of the things that's happened is that

15:14

that taboo, and none of the scientists would

15:17

ever admit to ever having had an experience

15:19

on the record. They would off the record,

15:22

which was hard for me, but

15:25

everything changed in the few

15:27

years after that. And it became acceptable

15:30

for people to talk about their use. But

15:33

I think the big thing is the taboo has

15:38

lifted the way it did with cannabis. Right.

15:41

It was moms doing it, but

15:43

what happened first was, and this

15:45

was the activists did this, they

15:47

rebranded cannabis from Chichen Chong. Yeah,

15:50

yeah, yeah, yeah. To

15:52

medicine for AIDS patients and people with

15:54

wasting syndrome and things like that. And

15:57

remember, we started with medical marijuana and

15:59

that changed the image. And it may

16:01

be the same thing is happening with

16:03

psychedelics, which are getting a lot of

16:05

attention as a therapeutic aid. But as

16:08

one of my sources put it,

16:10

they're very important for the betterment

16:12

of well people also, not

16:15

just people who are ill. So

16:18

far though, the path that they're on, I think,

16:21

there are two paths really. There's a medical

16:23

path that we've talked about. There's also a

16:25

spiritual path. There are a lot of people

16:27

who are interested in religion. There was a

16:30

really interesting study that hasn't been published yet

16:32

that I'm writing about, where religious leaders in

16:35

13 different faiths were given a high

16:37

dose of psilocybin to see what insight

16:39

they might have on the religious visions

16:41

they had and the mystical experience. Huh.

16:44

And what did they find? Well,

16:46

a lot of these people were burnt

16:48

out before. You're working and

16:51

dying and people at really hard times

16:53

in their lives and congregations are

16:55

shrinking. And many of the ones I

16:57

talked to had their

16:59

faith renewed. They all had divine

17:02

encounters except for a Buddhist.

17:04

So that's kind of

17:06

what you'd expect. The

17:08

Buddhist said, when I

17:11

interviewed her, she's a Buddhist priest, and she

17:13

said, I traveled to a realm beyond concept

17:15

for which there are no words. Oh, I

17:17

love that. It

17:19

was a very short interview. There was nowhere to go from there.

17:24

But others

17:28

were really surprised that the divine

17:30

didn't always conform to their faith.

17:32

And in many cases, I think

17:34

the majority, the divine was feminine

17:37

and that blew some of their minds. I love

17:39

that. God is a woman. I can get behind you.

17:41

Yeah, God is a woman. So now we've got her.

17:43

Now we've got her. Okay,

17:47

wait. So what's the thing you're most... Like when you

17:49

think about it? You know what? It's so funny. I

17:51

was going to say... What's the scariest thing you think

17:54

of? What scares me? The benefits. Wait,

17:56

what? Yeah. Everything I read about the...

18:00

good and I'd love Michael to go through the benefits

18:02

first and then I'll explain why I found it

18:04

profoundly terrifying. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I

18:06

thought you're going to tell me that you're afraid

18:09

of... Yeah,

18:11

but all of that stuff also exists with alcohol, which I

18:14

think if it was invented today, we probably wouldn't sell

18:16

it. So really, do you know what I mean? All

18:19

of that stuff exists with other substances,

18:21

but psychedelics, for me, the more I

18:23

read, it was the benefits that was

18:25

like, this is some cultist, scary

18:27

shit and people

18:29

should just be Pentecostals. But Michael,

18:32

I want you to talk through

18:34

the benefits, particularly what

18:37

did take me was end of life care. This

18:39

was the most moving

18:42

work that I saw getting done, which

18:44

was people

18:46

with cancer diagnoses, many of them terminal,

18:50

having a guided psychedelic session. This happened

18:52

at NYU in New York and at

18:55

Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. And

18:57

I interviewed a lot of these people and they

18:59

had their whole attitude toward

19:01

death and their anxiety changed.

19:06

Some had the experience of

19:09

developed a confidence that something would

19:11

happen to their consciousness after

19:13

they died. Other

19:15

people had incredibly

19:17

naturalistic scenarios in their

19:20

head about what would happen. I remember

19:22

one woman describing that

19:25

she'd been flying all over the world

19:27

and then went into the ground and

19:31

was disaggregated and her molecules

19:33

were taken up by plants.

19:37

Now this is not a supernatural idea.

19:39

This actually happens. Yeah, but

19:41

people are very little. But

19:44

she felt it and she identified with it.

19:46

And she identified with something beyond

19:49

her ego that made it

19:51

easier to think about her death, that

19:53

we are all interconnected and

19:55

that in some way

19:58

she would go on. her ego

20:00

would not, but that was okay. And

20:03

then this experience of what's

20:06

called ego dissolution, of

20:08

feeling that yourself

20:11

has kind of been, I mean,

20:13

I had, I described in the

20:15

book this experience of seeing myself

20:18

explode into a cloud of

20:20

blue Post-it notes, which then

20:23

fluttered to the ground and form

20:25

this pool of thick blue paint.

20:28

And from some new perspective, I'm observing

20:30

this and I was like, okay,

20:32

this is perfectly fine. That's okay being a puddle

20:35

of blue paint. I don't have a problem with

20:37

that. But

20:39

what happens when your ego dissolves is

20:41

that the barrier, your

20:43

ego is a wall, is a

20:46

defensive structure, right? And when the

20:48

walls come down, there's nothing separating

20:50

you from whatever is out there.

20:54

We're going to continue this conversation right after

20:56

this short break. This

20:58

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and more at applecard.com. I

22:12

have friends who

22:15

took psychedelics as

22:18

atheists and

22:20

then called me and said, I now

22:22

believe in a God. I'm talking

22:24

about the most skeptical, just

22:27

like calloused individuals. They go like,

22:29

I die and nothing. It's straight

22:31

up material. You forget you forget

22:33

about this is stupid. And

22:35

then they take they take psychedelics and

22:37

they will say to me, look, I don't know what

22:39

it's called. I don't know

22:43

who made it or whether it made me or

22:45

how it works or doesn't work. But I now

22:47

know that it exists. And you see them develop

22:50

a different connection with themselves and with

22:52

this idea that goes beyond themselves. And

22:55

I I always wonder, actually,

22:57

Michael, like you

22:59

know, we we know that psychedelics affect

23:01

or at least mushrooms in particular affect

23:03

our neuroplasticity. Right. So essentially

23:06

what it does is it interrupts

23:08

your brain's ability to make assumptions about

23:10

things, which is how the human brain

23:12

needs to work. Yeah. Right. The reason

23:14

a baby is enamored by a box

23:16

is because their brain is constantly going

23:18

like, whoa, what is this? And

23:21

then at some point, you're like, it's a box. That's why when

23:23

we you know, when we have like cake, you

23:26

know that what's it called again? Well, the trend you

23:28

guys know the cake. Yeah. Yeah. But

23:30

cake's not cake. Yeah. But you know why that messes with us? Yes.

23:33

Exactly. OK. So

23:35

one of the reasons that messes with us and

23:37

mesmerizes us so much as adults is because it's

23:39

sort of returning us back to being a baby.

23:41

Babies are constantly living in a world of is

23:43

it cake? You with me? So

23:46

when you play peekaboo with a baby, when you cover

23:48

your eyes, you know, you're gone to them. Yeah. Right.

23:50

So the baby's like, where did you go? And then

23:52

you open your eyes and such idiots. Yeah, exactly. That's

23:55

why they live in so much wonder. That's why

23:57

they they're like, wow, the world is so big.

26:00

It's based on the world being as the

26:02

world usually is. And

26:04

so very little new information comes in.

26:06

Our senses are only being used to

26:08

correct the predictions that

26:10

our minds are making. That's it.

26:12

What psychedelics appear to do is

26:15

short circuit that predictive machinery.

26:17

And what that means is

26:19

they can help you break

26:21

out of habits of thinking

26:24

and habits of behavior that you're

26:26

stuck in because you're

26:28

predicting that, you know, I'm

26:31

the kind of person who can't get through the day without

26:33

a drink. This is a

26:35

prediction about who you are and an

26:37

identity you're stuck in. And

26:40

the psychedelics, Trevor mentioned

26:42

plasticity. They make the mind

26:45

more plastic and they essentially

26:47

temporarily dissolve those habits

26:49

of thought. And

26:51

that's very useful for people

26:53

struggling with addiction, for people

26:55

struggling with eating disorders, people

26:58

struggling with obsessive compulsive. I mean,

27:00

these are all disorders where you're

27:02

stuck in a loop and you

27:04

have some habit of thought you

27:06

can't break. And psychedelics

27:08

appears to be able to help people break

27:11

those habits. I'm curious. And this

27:13

is a completely serious question. Can it be used

27:15

to treat racism? Because

27:17

that is a pattern. No, that is

27:19

a to me. I mean, I know you're being serious.

27:22

I'm being so serious. No, I know you're being serious.

27:24

That's maybe what made it funnier for me. It's

27:27

not a ridiculous question. No, I'm like, all

27:29

right, some people have anorexia, some people have

27:31

depression, but a lot of people have racism.

27:33

A lot of people have racism, right. You

27:35

or your loved ones suffering from racism. Do

27:39

you find yourself hating people because of the

27:41

color of their skin? I'm like racism, homophobia.

27:43

I mean, the real like... Consider

27:45

shrooms. Talk to your doctor

27:48

about shrooms. It's

27:50

a serious question. I like it.

27:53

It caught me off guard. Okay. Can

27:55

it be used to treat racism, homophobia, etc? It's

27:59

a hypothesis. that needs to be tested. You

28:04

know, they do change people's beliefs. There's

28:08

a general belief that the

28:10

direction of those changes are

28:12

toward feeling more like other

28:15

people, more connected to other people, more

28:17

connected to nature, less tolerance for

28:20

authoritarianism. I haven't seen a study

28:22

looking at racial attitudes, but

28:25

it stands to reason that if

28:27

there is this very common feeling

28:29

of I love everybody, we're all

28:31

one, you know? And so

28:34

it's not out of the question. It would be

28:36

very interesting to test. I mean, racism is a

28:38

habit of thought, right? Cause I actually thought about

28:40

police officers. When you said that thing about like

28:42

our minds making these predictions, I thought

28:44

of, sure, we can look at these

28:46

institutions as racist and these are terrible

28:48

people, but they are basing everything they

28:50

do based on predictions and biases that

28:52

often that they can't help themselves. Like

28:54

to me, it's interesting if shrooms can

28:56

unravel that, in a way

28:59

that I think words and even living

29:01

in sometimes diverse environments cannot. Well,

29:04

you know, what happens with these experiences

29:06

is that people begin to write new

29:08

stories about who they are,

29:10

about how the world works, but you need to

29:12

be guided through it. The guide

29:15

would talk to you about that

29:17

after the experience to kind of

29:20

solidify a new perception. Yeah,

29:22

I think actually that's one

29:24

of the biggest misconceptions that

29:28

I've seen around psychedelics,

29:32

you know, particularly mushrooms is people

29:34

will go, you take this and

29:37

your life changes and

29:39

everything will never be the same

29:41

and it's perfect. And to what

29:43

Michael's saying is I've found that

29:46

people who take mushrooms unintentionally or

29:48

like without intention behind their action

29:50

don't have the same results. All

29:52

they do is they experience a

29:54

moment of joy. They experience a

29:56

moment of feeling connected but

29:59

then they quickly settle back. into all the

30:01

old patterns because they've been around for so

30:03

much longer. But the people who have a

30:05

guide or people who do what they call

30:07

like reintegration, those people spend

30:09

more time in the liminal space

30:12

that is thinking about what you're experiencing. And

30:14

that's another reason I didn't like it. Why?

30:17

Because as I

30:19

understand it, the roots of this

30:22

stuff is indigenous medicine, right? It

30:24

belonged to a people before it

30:26

was kind of codified and it

30:28

becomes this thing that academics and

30:31

Hollywood elites and white liberal people do. I

30:33

don't think it belonged to anyone. I think

30:36

people were just taking it. I mean, sure,

30:38

but it's part of indigenous plant medicine in

30:40

a way that it's not connected to the

30:42

white American experience. Am I wrong, Michael? You're

30:46

partly right and partly wrong. I love it. This is

30:48

great. Go

30:52

ahead. Psilocybin. So some

30:54

psychedelics have an indigenous history. Psilocybin

30:56

is one. It was used in

30:59

Mexico and Central America for thousands

31:01

of years. Peyote, Native

31:03

Americans and Mexicans for 6,000 years. But

31:08

LSD, MDMA, these are

31:10

creations of modern

31:13

Western chemistry. I

31:15

think that in general, the

31:18

indigenous use of these substances has

31:21

a lot to teach us. And that I think one

31:23

of the places we went wrong in

31:25

the 60s was not

31:28

paying attention to the wisdom of

31:31

indigenous cultures. And we figured we

31:33

could create a whole new context

31:35

and we failed. Where

31:38

are we seeing the biggest changes in

31:40

the adoption of psychedelics or even the

31:42

acceptance of them? Are we seeing a

31:44

thrust coming from a particular segment of

31:47

society in America? I think

31:49

Silicon Valley has been a place

31:52

where psychedelics are in widespread use. And

31:54

these are the people who are the

31:56

philanthropists funding a lot of the studies

31:58

that are going on. on. One

32:02

interesting community that I've been working on,

32:04

I'm writing a book about consciousness, and

32:07

most of the philosophers and

32:09

neuroscientists who are working on

32:11

that issue are experimenting with

32:14

psychedelics as an

32:16

avenue of inquiry. People who

32:18

are completely brain-centric people who

32:20

think, of course, consciousness

32:23

emerges from the neurons,

32:25

are having experiences of

32:27

consciousness outside of the

32:29

skull, and they're having

32:31

crises, metaphysical crises. That's

32:33

really interesting. I don't

32:36

know where that'll go.

32:38

One community that's really important in this

32:40

space is veterans. It's

32:43

a community with high rates

32:45

of trauma, what is it, 18

32:48

suicides a day in America among vets. Some

32:51

of them are using it

32:53

often in groups, sometimes going down to

32:56

Mexico or somewhere where it's legal or

32:58

quasi-legal, but that they're getting a lot

33:00

of relief from trauma

33:02

using a series of psychedelics. I

33:04

think you have this interesting

33:06

phenomenon of microdosing, which is very low risk,

33:08

and many people do it. Christiana alluded to

33:10

it earlier. Some people find it very helpful.

33:12

We don't have a lot of science on

33:14

it to say one way or another. It

33:17

may be a placebo effect, but

33:19

there's nothing wrong with a placebo effect. If it

33:21

works, it works. Placebos are actually

33:24

driving changes in your mind.

33:27

That, I think, makes it very easy for

33:29

people to enter into this world at

33:32

low risk and potentially high reward.

33:35

That seems to be in many, many different

33:37

circles. There's so much to unpack here for

33:39

me, because I do know part of my

33:42

rejection of this is rooted in my own

33:44

sense of ego. I will own that,

33:47

and having a family with mental illness

33:49

and addiction issues. There's a

33:51

lot of stuff around substances for me.

33:54

Now we have this drug that is coming more

33:56

into emergence that some people can afford a

33:58

fancy guide. Yeah,

34:00

and it is very expensive. It is

34:03

very expensive and like settings, like it

34:05

sounds like this is something that could be

34:07

hugely beneficial for people who don't have much

34:10

money and can't afford a guide. So first

34:12

of all, I want to go back to

34:14

what you said about family and addiction. I

34:17

like you have family members who have struggled with

34:20

predominantly alcohol, you know, and that

34:22

addiction when you see it is one

34:25

of the worst things. It's one of the scariest

34:27

experiences you'll have. That's why when

34:29

I first encountered any semblance of something that was

34:31

even considered a drug, I was like, oh, this

34:33

is the escalation of that. I was like, if

34:35

alcohol is 10% bad, drugs are 500% bad. That's

34:39

how I thought. And then what

34:41

I came to find is

34:43

how these substances,

34:45

you know, these medicines, I would even call them,

34:49

they do the opposite of

34:51

like alcohol. I always try to explain

34:53

this to friends. I go, alcohol

34:56

disconnects you from yourself and

34:59

psychedelics connect you to yourself. I've

35:01

met very few people, if any, actually who

35:03

go, oh, yeah, I can't believe I did

35:05

that. And I know alcohol will always have

35:07

a story that ends with and then I

35:09

crashed the car and then I punched this

35:11

person. Psychedelics does

35:13

this. It's the strange. It's a strange, different

35:16

connection that connects people to themselves and who

35:18

they actually wish to be as opposed to

35:20

like who they've sort of become. You know,

35:22

you know, it sounds so religious. No, no,

35:24

it is. It is. It

35:26

is in many ways. But you know what I like

35:28

about it is it's not easily manipulated by a religious

35:31

figure. Is that how it's felt for you

35:33

when you've done psychedelics? Yeah, that's exactly how

35:35

it's felt. So I think in an optimistic

35:37

world, in a future, right

35:40

now it's expensive. There's guides. People

35:42

have made it a little like, you

35:44

know, like what do they call it? Like glamping.

35:46

Yeah, glamping. They've made it glamping right

35:48

now. But I do think there'll

35:51

be apps. I do think

35:53

there'll be a democratization of the idea of

35:55

a guide. I genuinely think it

35:57

will be very short before you'll have, you'll have an AI

35:59

guide. on your phone. So dystopian.

36:01

No, I know it is in some ways, but can

36:04

I tell you something? I actually think that that will

36:06

be what opens it up to everyone

36:08

in the right way. And I think that's

36:10

gonna open it in the right way because to your

36:13

point, Michael, when people

36:15

have used psychedelics in

36:18

the right settings with the

36:21

right company, with the right intention, I've

36:24

witnessed people change their lives. I've seen people

36:26

who couldn't build connections with their families. They

36:28

had deep traumas that they've held their entire

36:30

lives. And they couldn't, with all the talk

36:32

therapy in the world, they couldn't let go

36:34

of the feeling. You know the feeling you

36:37

have when somebody has traumatized

36:39

you or when you've experienced trauma because of them

36:41

or around them? I've witnessed people

36:43

lose that. I've seen people shift

36:46

so much of who they were

36:48

to who they could be because

36:51

of psychedelics. And when

36:53

we live in a world where so many people do

36:56

what they do because they're stuck in the idea of who

36:58

they are, I think of

37:00

how magical it could be to find ourselves

37:02

in a place where it's not, first of

37:04

all, it's not a pharmaceutically controlled thing. There's

37:06

no like- Trevor, don't you want to create

37:08

a world where less people

37:10

feel they need to escape reality because

37:13

they're so depressed, anxious and traumatized? Like

37:15

it feels like- And that's

37:17

what I'm saying. I don't know if you agree, Michael,

37:19

but- But I feel like psychedelics are kind of like

37:21

a plaster over the mother

37:23

wound or whatever it is. If

37:26

we weren't in a capitalist hellscape, right?

37:28

And we had good housing and good schools. I'll

37:30

challenge you on this. And more people

37:32

were healed. This is a work of like

37:34

prison abolitionists, right? Who were like, don't

37:37

put him in prison. He just needs organic

37:39

food and a nice house, right? No,

37:41

no, no, but okay, let me challenge you on this. Real

37:44

quick. I think it is beautiful for

37:46

us to think of psychedelics

37:48

as a soul for what's happening now. And I think

37:50

in many ways it can help with a lot of

37:53

what society is going through. However, this

37:55

has been as old as time. There will always

37:57

be something that makes time terrible. You

37:59

get- with

46:00

me about this, but in general, you're

46:03

talking about chemicals

46:05

that mess with your ego.

46:08

And it seems to me until you've

46:10

fully developed your ego, that might not

46:12

be a good idea. And

46:14

that, you know, kids and boys

46:16

in particular are still developing into their early

46:18

twenties. And it seems like that might not

46:21

be the best time to do it. I

46:23

see psychedelics as kind of a

46:25

rite of passage and cultures are

46:28

always very specific about who's eligible for

46:30

a rite of passage. And

46:33

I would say a 13 year old,

46:35

not ready. No, I love that

46:37

framing though, rite of passage. No, it's funny you

46:39

say that. So

46:42

I remember talking to my youngest brother about it

46:45

and he is 20 and

46:47

we had this whole conversation. He was like, you know, what

46:49

is this thing about? Cause he knows me, we've grown up

46:52

in the same household. And so I said

46:54

to my youngest brother, I said, you know, the

46:56

biggest reason I would say to you, you shouldn't. And

46:59

this is why I'll say to any young person why

47:01

you shouldn't do mushrooms is

47:03

because it will not give you other than like,

47:05

oh, hallucinations and what I mean, but it won't

47:08

give you the thing that is

47:11

so important for like older people to get

47:13

from it. And that is a

47:15

loosening of how you see the world. Young people already have

47:17

a loose view of the world. That's

47:20

why they're the ones who start revolutions

47:22

and they protest for different ideas and

47:24

they- Tech companies. Yeah, no, it's true.

47:26

It's all the young who think this

47:29

could be different. And so I

47:31

said to him, I was like, your brain

47:33

is already so fantastically plastic. Why not keep

47:35

that? Keep that until you find

47:37

that you're stuck. And I tell this to anyone.

47:39

I go, you can use mushrooms for fun, but

47:41

I go, if you can use it when you're

47:43

stuck, you're stuck

47:45

in alcoholism, you're stuck in

47:47

love and in relationships

47:50

and you can't figure out how to

47:52

break your patterns. You're stuck in how

47:54

you see the world. You're stuck in

47:56

whatever it is. That's when I would

47:58

say to somebody- Try Jesus. No,

48:00

try. It's like, they're so interchangeable to

48:03

me. No, no, no. Okay. I'll

48:06

say this as somebody who has done Jesus and I've done mushrooms.

48:08

I've done both. I've

48:10

done Jesus and I've done mushrooms. Jesus

48:13

is amazing. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. Trevor's

48:15

like, my mom's listening. I'm doing it. Jesus

48:17

is the way, the truth, and the light. Don't get me wrong. But

48:21

I always say, and I always talk to my mom

48:23

about this, I go, don't forget, Jesus made wine when

48:26

the party needed wine. So

48:29

even Jesus knew that

48:31

sometimes people need a

48:33

little something, something. You know what I mean? And

48:35

so- And by the way, that wine was

48:38

not just wine. I mean,

48:40

there's a lot of evidence

48:42

that the early communion wine

48:44

was spiked. Oh, wow. Interesting.

48:46

Interesting. Oh yeah, completely serious.

48:48

So there are archaeologists that

48:51

specialize in chemistry and they've

48:53

been looking at early communion

48:55

cups and they found one

48:57

in Spain that

49:00

had residues of ergot, which

49:02

is the fungus from which

49:05

LSD was derived. No, waste. I

49:08

know, I know. So there is

49:10

a theory and it needs a lot

49:12

more research and proof. There's a good

49:14

book on this called The Immortality Key

49:16

by Brian Marescu, but

49:19

that there is some reason to believe that

49:22

there was another drug in the

49:24

communion cups and they were trying

49:26

to give people, as you know,

49:28

the Native Americans had done and

49:30

many other research, a big experience.

49:33

And what we have left is

49:35

this kind of meneshevitzy wine. That's

49:38

nothing special. But

49:40

once upon a time, it apparently had

49:42

a real kick. I

49:45

think what I don't

49:47

like is how I've seen

49:49

how presidential advisors during the

49:51

Nixon era and during the

49:53

Vietnam War and all of

49:55

that, they specifically set out

49:57

to target these psychedelics.

50:00

psychedelics because they felt they undermined what

50:02

America was trying to be and what

50:04

was America trying to be at that

50:06

time, a place where it fights wars,

50:08

it bombs other countries, it gets their

50:10

resources and it makes people clamor for

50:12

those resources in their lives. And they

50:14

found when people started

50:16

using these psychedelics, they didn't care

50:18

about being a manager. They didn't care

50:20

about getting more money than the person around them.

50:23

They didn't care as much. They cared about other

50:25

people. They wanted other people to

50:27

eat. And this they felt

50:30

undermined what the American dream was built on. And

50:32

I get the US government in that because I'm

50:34

someone that loves order. Like I'm an order over

50:36

freedom type of person. Yes, but what I'm saying

50:38

is you're conflating. So all these free people opening

50:40

their consciousness, now close it. No, no, no, but

50:42

what I'm saying is ironically, ironically, that's why I

50:45

think like the indoctrination has worked.

50:48

They've tricked people into believing

50:50

that there is only one way to have

50:53

order. Okay. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah.

50:56

And I think that the only way we

50:58

can live in a civilized society is if

51:00

everybody goes to an office and everybody tries

51:02

to make as much money as possible and

51:04

everybody screws each other over, that's order. But

51:08

when it's ancient tribes, whether it was

51:10

native Americans, whether it was in South

51:13

America, whether it was in Africa, they had

51:15

order. And this was a

51:17

tool that they used, ironically, to

51:20

maintain that order. Because they did maintain

51:22

that order. That's right. And

51:24

when it's stuck, that's when there's

51:26

disorder. For sure. You know?

51:29

Yeah. This is when people now, they

51:31

break, they fight, they hurt each other. That's

51:34

the thing that actually brings the order back because you

51:36

go like, oh yeah, I'm part of something. I'm not

51:38

alone in this thing. Yeah. We're

51:40

all part of something. Yeah. I

51:42

think that's my problem. I'm not comfortable with a

51:44

society where there's no yearning and like profound brokenness

51:46

for people to keep striving. Yeah,

51:49

but striving for what? No, but striving for what? Tying

51:52

for just like this being their best, which

51:54

is f-ed up. Actually, so no, no, no, I'm going to

51:56

ask. I'm going to be the best artist. I'm going to ask

51:58

Michael about that. But okay, you know,

52:01

I'm talking about right and and and I

52:03

would love to know Michael from your side

52:05

Because look at you. You are one of

52:07

the most accomplished writers Did

52:09

you find that you didn't have

52:11

a yearning after taking psychedelics or how did it

52:13

affect your perception of what to yearn for? Well,

52:16

you know one of the things about psychedelics is you

52:18

don't immediately want to do them again It's

52:21

kind of overwhelming. Yeah, and that's why they're not

52:23

habit forming. I think it's like I the

52:26

cartel doesn't sell mushrooms Yeah, there's

52:28

no money I

52:30

mean even even when these things are used

52:32

in a treatment modality. It's one or two

52:34

pills or experiences That's it, you know And

52:37

the pharmaceutical model is based on taking the

52:39

same pill every day for the rest of

52:41

your life But without question, they're very disruptive,

52:44

you know, they're they're so every

52:46

society has drugs, right? I mean, it's just

52:48

a given that humans change consciousness. It's one

52:51

of the things we do children do it

52:53

when they get dizzy We're

52:56

just not satisfied with everyday normal consciousness

52:59

For whatever reason we have caffeine We

53:02

don't even think about that as a drug, but

53:04

it's a very powerful drug. It happens to be

53:06

a drug that makes us fit Even

53:09

more smoothly into the machinery of the

53:11

capitalist order makes us very good workers

53:13

and that's why their coffee breaks Right.

53:16

I mean think about it. Your employer

53:18

gives you free drugs and

53:20

time to use the man Twice

53:24

a day So

53:27

and then there's alcohol which kind of

53:29

numbs people to a miserable life Although

53:32

they can get into trouble with it and

53:34

there's cigarettes that actually help help make people

53:37

better workers in various ways and

53:39

then there are drugs that disrupt the whole system and

53:41

and Psychedelics in the

53:43

Western context in the 60s were

53:46

definitely that there's a famous quote

53:49

From President Nixon that his domestic policy

53:51

advisor John Ehrlichman gave to a journalist

53:53

But basically Ehrlichman said yeah the drug

53:55

war which Nixon starts in 1970 That

53:59

was It wasn't about public health, that

54:01

was all about politics. Nixon's

54:05

great enemies were hippies and

54:07

black people. And

54:09

by making LSD illegal, he

54:11

could disrupt the hippie community.

54:14

And by making marijuana illegal,

54:17

he could disrupt the black community.

54:19

So we have to understand that

54:21

which drugs are legal, which ones

54:23

are not, is always changing. And

54:26

it depends on the nature of the

54:28

drug, but also the nature of the

54:30

society. What's happening with psychedelics now is

54:32

it's undergoing a transformation itself from

54:35

being this very disruptive force to

54:37

potentially being something that could help

54:39

people deal with various mental health

54:42

issues. That's the story that hasn't

54:44

been completely written yet, whether

54:47

our society can make peace with these

54:49

incredibly powerful and disruptive molecules. And the

54:51

answer, the jury is still out. Yeah,

54:55

I don't think, I mean,

54:57

I'm biased, but I'm biased because of

54:59

the writing, the people I've met, the

55:01

research. I don't think

55:03

it does, to what

55:06

Michael just said, it

55:08

may interrupt people's yearning to be part of

55:10

a system that has failed so many. Yes,

55:12

I agree. I can agree with that. But

55:15

look at what it's done to the world. Do

55:18

you know what I mean? Yeah. Like we're

55:20

bombing other countries because we want the black

55:22

goo that's underneath them, and then we'll bomb

55:24

another country because we want that thing, or

55:26

we feel like we need that. And

55:29

all of that yearning, I don't mind if some of

55:31

that goes down, because

55:33

I think people will have a different kind of

55:35

yearning, and I think that'll broaden us

55:38

out again as people. Do you get what I'm

55:40

saying? Yeah, I completely feel you. Like I know

55:42

that a lot of my objection is on one

55:44

hand indoctrination. Yes. And then it's just like being

55:46

a mother is fear. Of course, no,

55:48

yeah, that I understand. You know, like we have these stakes

55:50

in society. It's just like, it's this

55:52

loosening or this loss of yearning happening

55:55

all over. That's terrifying. I couldn't even live

55:57

through 2020. That was... We

56:00

just had to be in our rooms and

56:02

black people were like, we want a few more rights and

56:04

I was like, what's going on? It was just like any

56:06

upheaval, I guess it's the

56:08

British in me. We never really had a revolution.

56:10

Yeah, I know that's true. It's just like come

56:12

from societies are all about order and hierarchy, and

56:14

there's a king, there's a queen and if you're

56:17

Nigerian, you have a chief. Do you know what

56:19

I mean? There's a lot of fear on the

56:21

other side of it and the ego, even if

56:23

not something that I should, because I think that

56:25

even though I'm like, this isn't for me, there

56:27

could be someone else in my life that's like, I

56:30

could say, you know what, you should try microdising, this could

56:32

help. Well, exactly. Even if I

56:35

never wanted to use these substances again,

56:37

I think I'd want to live in

56:39

a world where other people

56:41

were. I like that. Some other people. Yeah.

56:44

Because what we're doing

56:46

is, we

56:48

haven't talked about creativity and some

56:50

people get great ideas on psychedelics.

56:53

They're cultural

56:55

mutagens, they're like mutations. We

56:58

don't have the Beatles without psychedelics. Ringo Starr

57:00

was the worst drummer to

57:03

probably ever live. Hot take. I

57:05

think I'm going to an okay.

57:08

Wow, hot take. Terrible at keeping time.

57:11

Shots fired. Sorry, yes, Michael. Or

57:13

Steve Jobs, right? Yeah. Who credited

57:15

his creative vision to LSD. I

57:17

mean, I think that you

57:20

want to have a lot of different kinds

57:22

of people in your world, in your culture,

57:24

and some of them are exploring frontiers of

57:26

knowledge or frontiers of the

57:28

self and interiority, and some are

57:30

not. Yeah. It's not

57:32

for everybody. But I

57:35

think that it's on balance a good

57:37

thing may exist and the fact that

57:39

people can achieve these states of consciousness,

57:41

which may benefit all of us. I

57:44

love that. Michael, thank

57:46

you. Thank you for joining us. You

57:49

know me, I could talk to you for hours and

57:51

hours about this. Because I do

57:53

believe, not that this is the solve

57:55

for everything, but rather

57:57

that there are many people who are...

57:59

stuck in their lives. And

58:03

when you can start to unlock that in people,

58:06

you just change how

58:08

people, when you change how you see the world, you

58:11

change how you be in that world. And

58:13

I don't know. And the fact that you have

58:15

a way of seeing the world, we're not even

58:17

aware of. We're not aware of this windshield consciousness,

58:19

right? Yeah. I like that. And what psychedelics do

58:22

is they kind of smudge the windshield and you're

58:24

always, oh shit, there's a windshield there. Yeah. In

58:26

fact, I would say- Why is it that way?

58:28

And could it be another way? I would argue

58:31

world leaders should be

58:33

doing psychedelics. Like you see the UN, one

58:35

day at the UN, everybody

58:37

should have to take psychedelics and they should

58:39

all get guided. And then you can start,

58:42

you can only start negotiating about how the

58:44

world should be when you are fully able

58:46

to see the world through multiple lenses. That's

58:48

what I believe. So Michael, I'm going to

58:50

try, I'm going to pitch that and

58:52

you- I like that. You're going to come in and- You

58:54

have a general assembly that's bought off. Let's do it. We're going

58:56

to do it like the communion. We're just going to spike all

58:58

the water that's in front of them. And

59:01

then we start guiding them from the

59:03

front. Michael Pollan, thank you

59:05

so much. Thank you so much again for joining

59:07

us. Thank you, Michael. Thank you guys. And thank

59:10

you, Christiana, for adding some hybrid vigor to the

59:12

conversation. I love it. I love it. I

59:15

call it hating, but you call it

59:17

hybrid vigor. That's going to be the

59:19

new term we use. Hybrid vigor. She's

59:21

a hybrid vigor. I love it. Who

59:23

put that in my

59:25

Instagram bio? I love that. Thank you so

59:28

much, Michael. All right. You guys

59:30

take care. You too. So

59:36

okay. So let me ask you this.

59:39

So first of all, if we were at 100% no.

59:44

For me personally or for society? No, for you

59:46

personally. Oh yeah. Oh, okay. We can

59:48

do both. You're at 100% no for both. Okay. Yeah. So

59:51

let's go with society. Where are you now? For

59:55

society, I'm at like 50%. No, because I

59:57

think. That's

1:00:00

a good jump. I think most people should

1:00:02

not be anywhere near this shit. This is fine.

1:00:05

I'm willing to take this to a

1:00:07

sense. But when you're studying end of

1:00:09

life care, veterans, people need relief. People need healing.

1:00:11

And however you find the healing in a way that's not

1:00:13

harmful, I don't want to be in the way of that.

1:00:16

But for everyone else, you need to figure it out. I

1:00:18

beg. Figure it out. Grow

1:00:21

up. Everyone's traumatized. And

1:00:23

for you personally? For me personally, got

1:00:26

me down to maybe 100% no to 95% no. Because

1:00:29

I don't want to augment my reality. So there's nothing in your

1:00:31

life where you go like, I'm stuck and I haven't been

1:00:33

able to unstuck this. Oh, my whole family situation is crazy.

1:00:36

Yeah, but I can't fix them. I can't fix my extended

1:00:38

family. But like, I think. No, but I'm saying what about

1:00:40

you in there? I

1:00:44

agree there are like blocks and stories that

1:00:46

we tell ourselves. Yeah. I

1:00:48

feel like someone that I encountered the divine and I

1:00:50

have like a sense of wonder and nature of my

1:00:52

children. I don't have that yearning

1:00:54

for it right now. And that's why I wouldn't say you

1:00:56

should do it. I have things that do that for me.

1:00:59

So like, I can say I

1:01:01

see the benefits. But Michael's great. You're

1:01:03

great. You have changed my mind. I'll

1:01:05

take it. I

1:01:08

have moved somebody who is extremely

1:01:10

vigorous. I'll take my 5%. Hybrid

1:01:15

vigor. What

1:01:22

Now with Trevor Noah is produced by

1:01:24

Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero

1:01:26

Productions. The show is executive

1:01:29

produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yameen and

1:01:31

Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer

1:01:33

is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is

1:01:35

our producer. Music, mixing

1:01:38

and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank

1:01:41

you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for

1:01:43

another episode of What Now. Thanks

1:01:58

for watching. I'll see you next Thursday. This

1:02:01

episode is presented by Lululemon.