0:00

What I keep discovering these days is

0:02

that I have to run towards

0:05

the fear, and I actually have to sit with

0:07

my anger, and I actually have to look my envy

0:09

right in the eye, and if I can

0:12

be still with it, it eventually

0:14

transforms into something beautiful. Welcome

0:24

to the one you feed. Throughout

0:26

time, great thinkers have recognized the

0:28

importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes

0:31

like garbage in, garbage out, or

0:33

you are what you think, ring true.

0:36

And yet for many of us, our thoughts

0:38

don't strengthen or empower us. We

0:40

tend toward negativity, self pity,

0:43

jealousy, or fear. We see

0:45

what we don't have instead of what we do.

0:48

We think things that hold us back and dampen

0:50

our spirit. But it's not just about

0:52

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:55

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:57

effort to make a life worth living. The

1:00

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

1:02

moving in the right direction, how they

1:04

feed their good wolf. Thanks

1:15

for joining us. Our guest today is

1:17

Glenn and Melton Doyle, founder

1:20

of momastery dot com and the author

1:22

of the New York Times bestseller Carry

1:24

On Warrior Thoughts of Life

1:26

Unarmed. In the book Glennon tells

1:29

her story of being a recovering alcoholic

1:31

addict and bulimic in a collection

1:33

of confessional essays that lay bare

1:35

the dark secrets of her past while

1:37

maintaining a welcoming, inclusive,

1:40

and hopeful tone about her current life

1:42

as a mother of three. Her work has been

1:44

featured on The Today Show, Parents

1:46

Magazine, and Reader's Digest. Here's

1:48

the interview. Before

1:51

we get started with the interview, I wanted to remind

1:53

you that I am offering some one on one

1:55

sessions. Confucius said

1:57

that all men's natures are alike. It

2:00

is their habits that separate them.

2:02

So if you're looking for some help with your behavior

2:05

and habits to help you build a better life, send

2:07

me an email to Eric at one

2:10

you feed dot net. Thanks,

2:12

and here's the interview. Hi

2:14

Glenn, and welcome to the show. Thank you for

2:16

having me. Yeah,

2:19

I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us.

2:21

So our podcast is called The One You Feed

2:24

and it's based on the parable The Two Wolves,

2:26

where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson

2:29

and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside

2:31

of us. One is a good wolf, which

2:33

represents things like kindness and bravery

2:35

and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

2:37

which represents things like greed and hatred

2:40

and fear. And the grandson

2:42

stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks

2:44

up at his grandfather and he says, but, grandfather,

2:46

which one wins? And the grandfather

2:49

says, the one you feed. So

2:51

I'd like to start off by asking you what that

2:53

parable means to you in your life and

2:55

in the work that you do. Wow.

2:58

The interesting thing is, my dad used

3:00

to tell me that story all the time.

3:02

Yeah. Yeah, So it kind of gives me the

3:05

chills to hear it again. I

3:07

mean, I that parable

3:09

means something different

3:11

to me today as I hear it. I think

3:14

then it always has before. I

3:16

Mean, I've always understood

3:19

that to mean that we

3:21

are to run towards um,

3:23

the good. And

3:26

the interesting thing that that I

3:28

keep learning the hard way and over and

3:30

over again is for me um

3:34

the good stuff. It's almost like I have

3:36

to get through the bad wolves to

3:38

get to the good stuff. Like I can't

3:41

just run one way or another. Like for

3:43

me, you know, I started

3:46

this whole journey. I kind of got lost to addiction

3:48

when I was very very young, when I was eight years old, and

3:52

and then it morphed. I was a loss to food

3:54

addiction, and then that morphed into some other addictions,

3:56

and I didn't get out of it until it was twenty six. And

4:00

so this whole past eleven

4:02

years has been kind of trying to unravel all of

4:04

that and figure out just what happened. And

4:07

I really really believe that it

4:10

all comes down to the fact

4:12

that I was uncomfortable with pain, that

4:16

I was so terrified of the hard

4:18

parts of life, um,

4:21

you know, my own anger and sensitivity and

4:23

fear, um

4:26

that I felt like I had to numb it all, that

4:28

I just had to numb it all away and run from

4:30

it. And I ran from it for decades. And

4:34

what I keep discovering these days is

4:36

that I have

4:38

to run towards the

4:41

fear, and I actually have to

4:43

sit with my anger, and

4:45

I actually have to look my envy right in

4:47

the eye, and if

4:50

I can be still with it, it eventually

4:52

transforms into something beautiful. You know. I just

4:56

envy is on that list. And I just spent two

4:58

hours writing about envy today and how oh

5:01

gosh, as a creative person, and they can just

5:03

beat you alive. Um.

5:06

But I actually have

5:09

found when I don't run from it, right,

5:11

when I actually run towards that wolf of

5:13

envy and just admit that I'm envious

5:15

and sit with it for a while, I find

5:17

these beautiful gifts inside of envy. Like, for

5:20

example, when I

5:22

was um, just drinking myself

5:24

to death, I was so incredibly

5:27

envious of writers, to

5:30

the point where if somebody gave me a good book

5:32

and said it was beautiful, I would not read it because

5:35

I was too just brokenhearted

5:38

by this envy for this writer. And

5:40

now I know that, you know, I feel

5:42

like we're envious of people who are already

5:44

doing what we were made to do. And

5:47

so if we kind of use

5:49

that wolf, that envy wolf as sort

5:51

of a arrow pointing us towards

5:55

um, you know, maybe our destiny. That's

5:58

a beautiful

6:00

thing that can come out of staring that wolf down.

6:03

Right, So I don't know. Now I see

6:05

it as like I gotta get I got to face those

6:08

those bad wolves just so I can get to the

6:10

good ones. I explore on the show

6:12

all the time. Some of those

6:14

dichotomy is really around UM.

6:16

And you know, your story is very resonant to

6:19

me, I'm a recovering alcoholic and addict, and

6:21

uh, you know, I started into being

6:23

sort of troubled very early in life.

6:26

You know, by the time I was probably about the age you describe,

6:28

I had, you know, challenges that

6:30

were going I mean I wasn't you know, like kicking

6:32

back a six pack of booze at at nine,

6:35

but I was cle you know, I can look back and go, well,

6:37

there were some things that really weren't working out well there.

6:40

And you talk about how I've

6:42

heard you say that you around

6:45

that age you started to feel very uncomfortable

6:47

and you lost yourself to pretending an addiction.

6:49

And one of the things that we talked about

6:52

on the show a lot, and I'm always interested in is

6:54

the difference, you know, that line

6:56

between positive

6:59

thinking and delusion, Like

7:02

when when are we feeling what

7:04

we need to feel in dealing with it, and

7:06

when are we um So

7:09

that's so one extreme is to sort of do that, is

7:11

to is to wallow in our

7:13

our feelings. And then the other extreme is to deny

7:15

that that they're they're they're at all and

7:17

the world's a wonderful place and it feels

7:20

like somewhere in between those two things is

7:22

the place to be, and it can be really challenging

7:24

to find that right balance, at least for me

7:27

totally. But don't you find Yeah,

7:30

So it's like this um continued journey

7:32

of valleys and mountains, right, Like it's you're

7:34

in a valley on a mountain. And

7:37

but I do think that people who won't

7:40

let themselves experience the

7:42

agony being in the valley

7:45

also then don't get to experience

7:48

sort of the ecstasy of the mountain moments. I

7:52

do think that there's a sort of a

7:54

type of person that kind of numbs

7:56

those you know, we call it so

7:59

I called the brutiful, like that there's

8:01

this these parts of life that are so

8:03

so brutal and um

8:06

and they are also beautiful, you know,

8:08

and that that you know, marriage, parenting,

8:11

recovery, health, all of these

8:13

parts of life. You know. I just had an experience

8:15

recently where somebody asked me, tell

8:18

me what talk about what the word brutiful means? I

8:20

am. My sister said a baby,

8:23

um. And the night before she had the baby,

8:26

we found out that my grandmother was dying, and

8:28

so I had flew to Virginia. My sister

8:30

and I are in severabal extremely

8:33

close, and so I flew

8:35

to Virginia and I was holding her baby and she

8:37

named the baby Alice, after my grandmother. So

8:40

I'm holding this brand new, a little thing.

8:42

And then that night I get on a plane, I fly to

8:44

Ohio and there I am in the

8:46

nursing home and I'm holding my grandmother Alice's

8:49

hand, and the last thing she says to

8:51

me is take care of my baby, Alice.

8:54

And I mean just was in twenty four hours

8:57

the most one of the most beautiful experiences

8:59

and then one of them was brutal, and I

9:01

just felt both. It just felt

9:03

both so intensely, and

9:05

it was so hard. It was just the hardest

9:08

day. But I was so grateful because I

9:10

just felt human, you know, like I've numbered

9:12

those feelings for so long, because I felt like I couldn't

9:15

handle them, like the pain would be too much and

9:17

the duty would be too much. And

9:20

so to be fully present

9:23

for something so beautiful and for something

9:25

so brutal um

9:27

in the twenty for our period, just felt like

9:30

victory and eat it so like I'm

9:33

doing this human thing. I been doing it, you

9:35

know. Um,

9:38

So I don't know I was, I

9:40

was at this uh my marriage sort of

9:42

just imploded two years ago, and we're

9:45

working our way back um

9:47

to some honesty and health and some

9:50

good stuff right now. But a

9:52

couple of weeks after the implosion, I was at this grocery

9:54

store checking out, kind of

9:56

like a zombie, and I was in that like depressed mode

9:59

where I hadn't showered for a week and I was really

10:01

bad, and grocery

10:04

checkout woman asked for my I D so

10:06

I handed it to her and she looked

10:08

at it and she said, oh, Glennan, that's a pretty

10:11

name. What does it mean? And I

10:13

said, oh, it's an Irish name. It means a girl from the

10:15

valley. And then I just started

10:17

cracking up because I thought, oh, my gosh, that's so ironic,

10:20

Like you don't know why I'm laughing, but I just figured

10:22

out that this is hilarious because I basically live in

10:24

the valley and I've never put that together before

10:26

that that's actually my name. And

10:28

so she she started, she

10:31

just looked very serious, and she stopped

10:33

me and she said, listen, don't

10:36

knock the valleys. She

10:38

said, everybody wants to be on the mountaintops,

10:40

but up there, the air so thin

10:43

you can barely breathe, and all there

10:45

is to do is stand still and try not

10:47

to fall. But in the valley,

10:50

that's where the river runs, that's where

10:52

all the power is. Oh

10:56

my god, that's so

10:59

beautif. Well, I felt like I handed this lady

11:01

this idea, and she handed back this whole new

11:04

identity. Because the truth

11:06

is that for me, in

11:09

the valley times of my life, like my

11:11

addiction recovery and

11:14

during that time of my marriage falling apart, the

11:16

hardest times are sometimes the times where I glimpsed

11:19

the most power and beauty.

11:21

And yeah, it's

11:23

kind of my goal just to not numb it

11:25

anymore and just sit with it, because pain

11:28

is a really a harsh,

11:31

horrible teacher, but a really good one,

11:33

probably the best one I've ever encountered. Right,

11:36

you say, there's a bunch of things in what you

11:38

just said. They're a that's probably the

11:40

first chapter in the best wisdom

11:42

ever dispensed in the grocery store chapter of

11:46

for Sure. Um, But you've

11:48

said before that a broken heart is not the

11:51

end of anything, it's the beginning. Yeah.

11:54

I just talked to my kids about that recently,

11:56

actually, about how we're all well,

11:59

it's the same idea. Yeah, I mean, how we're all

12:01

just you know, so scared, holding

12:03

our hearts so so

12:05

so tight, like you know, they're made of

12:07

glass, and that if if

12:09

anything hurts our heart, we should run from it. My

12:12

experience is that the

12:15

opposite is true. I mean, I

12:17

I was just with a friend who was telling me that

12:19

she um was

12:21

so lonely growing up that you know, she

12:24

was one of the kids that nobody played with, and um

12:27

elementary school and then bullied in middle

12:29

school and grew up broken hearted.

12:32

And now she's a mom. And what she does is

12:34

she starts these programs all over the country for

12:37

kids to have these benches where kids who

12:39

are cheesed can sit and find friendships with other

12:41

kids. And that just

12:43

got me thinking about how every I mean, I get to travel

12:45

a lot because I do a lot of nonprofit work,

12:48

and so I get to meet people who are doing really

12:50

good things to change the world, and I

12:52

can't, I really can't think of

12:54

any of them who when I sit down with

12:56

these incredible leaders who are changing

12:58

the world for people, don't tell

13:00

me that their passion started with their

13:02

own broken heart. It's always

13:04

that way, but something happened in their

13:07

life that hurt them and then

13:09

they used it as fuel to

13:11

help others at the same pain. So

13:13

I don't know. I think, you know that's another

13:16

wolf, right, broken heartedness like

13:18

envy, and if we run from it,

13:20

we could be missing kind of a stepping

13:22

stone to our best life. Well,

13:25

I think the way, the way that I interpret

13:28

the parable in in that way is that

13:30

it's what we it's what we do with all

13:32

those things, right, It's not about just feeling

13:34

the good or the bad feelings, but how

13:37

do we how do we interact with

13:39

all those things in a in a useful

13:41

way. But I have a question for you about

13:43

this idea of um, you

13:45

know, broken heart is not the end of anything, it's the beginning

13:48

or that we find our passion and energy

13:50

from our pain, because I believe that absolutely,

13:54

because that's certainly been my experience. But I also

13:57

know that there's a reason that lots

14:00

of people numb themselves, and

14:03

there's a lot of people who never find their

14:05

way back up out of that. So what are

14:07

some of the ways that you work

14:10

with that pain so that it becomes transformative

14:13

instead of being something that turns

14:15

you bitter or permanently shuts

14:17

you down. What are what are some of the things that

14:19

allow it to become a positive experience?

14:22

Yeah, so I mean for me,

14:25

I am a words person obviously,

14:27

and I I just there's

14:30

a word that every time I feel really

14:32

really hurt. It happened to me today, it

14:34

happens to the other time. But every time I feel

14:36

really really hurt, I have this instinct

14:39

where I want to absolutely it

14:41

feels like shutting down, Like I just want

14:43

to shut down completely. Um.

14:47

I want to close my computer and

14:49

never go back on my blog. I want to stop writing. I want

14:52

to circle the wagons. I want to quit what I'm doing. I

14:54

want to get hurt. I want to stop. And

14:56

I just this this thing, this words,

14:58

these words that say stay open, stay

15:00

open, stay open. The

15:04

words stay open, for me are

15:07

some kind of magical

15:09

thing. I don't know. Every

15:12

single time that I've been hurt and

15:15

I have refused to lash out, you know, because

15:17

when we lash out, it's just we're deflecting

15:19

pain. Right. It's like sometimes I feel

15:21

like pain is like a hot potato, you know, like you somebody

15:24

passes it to us, and we just want to quick as quickly as possible,

15:26

just pass it to somebody else. Hurt somebody

15:28

else and get it out of our own hands. And

15:30

I get that completely. I mean, I do that all the time,

15:33

and I have to apologize for it. But

15:35

when I don't do it, and I just

15:37

force myself to be still, actually

15:40

have that tattoo on my wrists

15:42

constant reminder just be still

15:45

in it and let this pain

15:48

turn into something beautiful. It

15:51

always does if

15:54

I can stay open and let the pain

15:56

sort of. Um.

15:59

I don't know what it does. To tell you the truth, it

16:01

just morphs into widening

16:03

my heart, I guess. And what

16:06

is it. I don't know. It's forgiveness on the other side of

16:08

it. I don't know what it is on the other side of it. Um.

16:11

But when I sit still

16:13

with it and don't deflect

16:16

it or not or run from it, I

16:18

think that's growth. I think maybe growth

16:20

is the right word. Yeah.

16:23

I had a friend tonight I was talking to who is

16:25

feeling kind of I guess lonely

16:28

would be the word. And he said, well, okay, so I'm sitting

16:30

with it now, what what do I do next?

16:33

And I thought that was a really interesting I

16:35

think the only answer I had was, I guess you

16:38

sit with it more I'm sure you hear that all

16:40

the time while I've sat with it and it's still it's

16:42

still here. Yeah. Well, I

16:44

mean service and art are the

16:46

two things to save me again.

16:48

Then again, I mean, you can't

16:51

just sit forever. I get that, right,

16:55

I mean I think that in

16:57

order to well,

17:00

I'm I given um

17:02

my j others. I'm a completely destructive

17:04

person like that. That's what I did my first

17:06

half of my life, just destroy

17:09

right. So for me to

17:12

have basically a rule for myself

17:15

that I'm going to do

17:18

with my feelings now, things that are constructive

17:21

to me, that's art in service. So you

17:24

know, when I say something magical happens,

17:26

usually for me it's a U s A.

17:29

It's I write something out

17:32

of that experience of sitting with that pain

17:34

and whatever it taught me, and I write something

17:36

and what comes out of me

17:39

after that experience touches a lot of people, and

17:42

that for me seems like, um,

17:44

that it was all worth it. Wow. I love that

17:47

art in service. I would say those are probably

17:49

that's probably mine too, if I boiled

17:51

it down, that would be the two constructive

17:53

ways that I've I've learned, you know,

17:56

besides feeling the emotion. That's

17:58

the other Those are the two other construct of approaches

18:00

that have worked for me. Isn't that interesting,

18:03

right? So feeling it and

18:05

then doing something constructive afterwards,

18:08

Yep, I think that's the whole ball

18:10

game for me. I think it's just that over

18:13

and over and over. Yeah.

18:15

And I think there's one other component to it that you

18:17

talk about a lot. You You say that

18:19

the only difference between your

18:21

life in the past and now is that

18:24

you used to numb your feelings and hide, and

18:26

now you feel your feelings and share. And

18:28

I think there's some element you've You've got

18:30

that other piece which is and I think that's maybe the service

18:33

element of it, but it's also just the connection

18:35

to other people. It's that not feeling alone

18:38

element. Oh, absolutely, that's

18:41

it. I mean, that's you know, that's what I experienced

18:43

at me at my meetings the first time when

18:46

I started going to meetings, and I thought, oh my god,

18:48

I thought all of this nastiness

18:51

inside of me and all of the sphere and

18:53

you know, things are ashamed of. I thought this was just me.

18:56

I thought everyone else was fine, and I

18:58

was living this horrible dark existence

19:01

inside. So, you know, the first time

19:03

I went to one of my meetings and sat

19:06

around and listened to people telling

19:08

the truth about themselves.

19:11

I don't know if there's anything more wonderful

19:13

than that, and just

19:15

hearing the words me too,

19:18

me too. Those have got to be some of

19:20

them, us freeing words

19:23

that another human being can hear. They

19:25

are I. I remember my

19:28

memory is so foggy for obvious reasons,

19:30

for so many years. But I remember

19:33

the first time I ever came across a

19:35

recovery book. It was a narcotics anonymous

19:37

book, and I was still years away from

19:39

getting clean. But I remember I read that

19:41

book and I just sat and sobbed because

19:43

I had never heard anybody describe

19:46

what was going on inside me, and I was like, holy

19:48

shit, like that is. I could never have

19:50

put it into words. I was so lost and confused.

19:53

But when I read that and realized that other

19:55

people felt that way, it was certainly Again,

19:57

it took me a while to get there, but it was certainly

19:59

the big getting for me of recognizing

20:02

what was happening. Yeah,

20:04

because we don't even need, like

20:07

you said, like we don't. You don't have to figure much

20:09

else out. Like that's another thing that

20:11

I've learned like people don't even need

20:14

for me. I mean, I have this community of people who depend

20:16

on me right now to show up, and that's really all

20:18

they depend on me to do. They don't need

20:20

me to show up and fix anything

20:23

for them or figure out anything. Basically,

20:26

we just need I don't realize

20:28

a while ago that all we need is witness

20:30

it. We just need to witness for each other. We

20:32

just need to say I see your pain. It's

20:35

real, Yes, I

20:37

see it, And we need somebody

20:39

else to say that same thing for us. And we don't want anybody

20:41

to snatch it away from us, you know. Like I

20:44

think that's another really big

20:46

mistake we make with each

20:48

other's pain and each other's grief. We we think that

20:51

we have to fix it or you

20:53

know, a friend tells us about our pain

20:55

and we just want to grab it. You know. It's out

20:57

of love, I think, but we just want

20:59

to take it for ammer and because

21:01

you're so uncomfortable with pain. But I think

21:03

that pain is a you know, it's a

21:06

gift. It's holy. It's just like joy.

21:09

I mean, it's it's a human um

21:12

holy there for a purpose,

21:15

and we don't actually need to snatch it

21:17

from each other. I think we just need to say I see

21:19

it, Yeah, I see it. It's real. I feel that too.

21:22

Isn't this hard? This being human together?

21:58

You had a line that really struck

22:00

me, and I think it's I think it's a

22:02

useful thing to explore, particularly for

22:04

people who might be wrestling with addictions

22:08

of any different sort. And you said that getting

22:10

sober was like recovering from

22:12

frostbite. Oh god, yes,

22:16

and the my coral area to that.

22:18

As I always say, you know, getting sober is

22:20

terrible. Being sober is pretty wonderful,

22:23

but get in there. That process is really

22:26

so painful. And but the reason I

22:28

think that's important to talk about is so that people

22:30

don't confuse what that feels

22:33

like with what being sober is.

22:36

No. Absolutely, oh

22:38

lord, I mean that's the oh

22:40

the detox that was draw. I

22:42

mean, you just you just realize

22:44

every single hour why it is you started drinking

22:47

in the first place. I mean, you

22:49

know, you're just like, oh, yeah, that's right,

22:52

all of these feeling and all of the stuff you've been numbing

22:54

and by and and then of course, I

22:56

mean for those of us who've been drinking for decades

22:58

before that, then you have to face all,

23:02

we keep drinking so we don't have to think about

23:04

all the awful things we've done too. I mean, it

23:06

is certainly, you know, um, physical

23:09

and it's a it's addiction, it's real. But it's

23:11

also the second we start getting

23:13

sober, we have to face things that we

23:16

are are uncomfortable and messages we've made and

23:18

bridges we've burned, and so oh,

23:20

sweet Lord, have mercy that those

23:23

first weeks and months

23:25

and days are horrible. And yeah,

23:27

people need to talk about that because gets

23:31

worse before it gets worse or whatever.

23:33

They feel like it's just so

23:36

rough. Um,

23:38

but I mean, but oh

23:42

gosh, I just I just I don't

23:44

want people to to let the

23:46

hard part of getting there keep

23:48

them from how

23:50

wonderful it is on the other side. I

23:52

remember, you know, trying to get

23:55

sober, and it would be that bad. And I go, if

23:57

this is what sobriety is, forget it right

24:00

way. Yeah you feel like the smart one, Yeah,

24:03

right exactly. And so I

24:05

it's that it's that that there is really another

24:07

side to that, that is that that that early

24:10

part is is um,

24:12

it's just not indicative of what being

24:14

sober is. And I

24:17

think I've stayed sober. Sorry, I think

24:19

I've stayed sober before, just remembering how hard

24:21

it is to get there. Sometimes, Oh

24:23

my gosh, that is enough to do it, isn't

24:25

it. That is enough to keep you sober

24:27

for sure, Just not wanting to go

24:29

through the first few days again. I

24:31

feel like the battle of are things that people

24:33

get addicted to. Also, you know, like

24:36

my addictions are kind of like flashy and

24:38

like so dangerous that um

24:41

they seem so like bold and wild and

24:44

and put me in like a different category and addict.

24:47

But you know, I also feel

24:49

like I run into a lot of people who

24:51

are addicted to unkindness

24:55

and stark and um,

24:59

jealousy and guilt

25:02

and false pride. You know, I think that those

25:07

things, especially unkindness,

25:09

like I think I think that those things can be

25:12

um equally destructive in a life

25:14

and can keep people from

25:16

their best lives and from

25:18

connection just as

25:21

surely as boots can and drugs

25:23

can. Um. And I

25:25

think people use those things. I

25:28

run into people all the time who I feel like are using

25:30

unkindness as a pain deflector yeah,

25:33

so they don't have to they get hurt and then they

25:36

automatically lash out um.

25:38

They are using, they

25:40

are keeping um,

25:42

not allowing pain to transform them, just

25:45

like somebody who's addicted to booz does. Yeah.

25:47

I think there's a lot of a lot of different

25:50

levels of that. And sometimes I feel grateful for

25:52

the type of addictions that I had, because

25:55

it certainly led me to a place that

25:57

I had to do something about it. There was

26:00

there was nowhere else to think it was, there was nowhere else

26:02

to go with it. Really, I'm grateful

26:04

for that all the time. I hear

26:06

you completely. I was doing an interview

26:09

recently and I said, I brought

26:11

up my addictions, and the reporter said,

26:14

oh, you know, we don't need to go back to that, like

26:16

your your past, that you're over that,

26:18

that's in the past. Let's move on. And I was so

26:20

mad, and I couldn't

26:23

figure out why I was mad, And then I didn't think

26:25

of anything good to say, so I blew it. But

26:28

later I figured out that I

26:30

was just so upset that somebody

26:33

would look at that rock bottom moment I had. I

26:35

was on the bathroom floor, I just I was

26:37

holding a pregnancy cast I it

26:39

was the end of twenty years of being

26:41

lost to student drugs and booze

26:43

and I was like being faced with

26:46

this idea that I might need to become a mother,

26:48

and it was just wow.

26:51

And um, I think

26:53

of that moment as the best freaking moment of my

26:56

life. Like it,

26:59

I mean, I am grateful to

27:02

God, the universe, who ever was in charge

27:04

around here for forcing

27:07

me to the ground. You know. It's like life

27:09

just wants you to just say uncle

27:12

already, you know, just wants you to say,

27:15

I can't do it. I can't do it on my own, I need help.

27:18

And some people never

27:20

get forced to their knees like that, and

27:24

so they just done. Their whole life was just

27:26

good enough. And I would I would hate

27:28

that. So I don't

27:30

know. I'm good. I'm so grateful. And the same

27:32

thing happened with my marriage. You know, It's like another

27:36

rock bottom moment. I was like, are you serious, I'm

27:38

on the freaking bathroom floor again. Basically

27:40

it was my marriage, and I start

27:42

I didn't have the perspective to be grateful

27:44

for it at the moment, but I am now, Like we

27:47

were forced our marriage was forced

27:49

to the ground and we had to like deal

27:52

with it. Man, we didn't. We didn't get to do the

27:54

Okay, we'll just be good enough for fifty

27:56

years. And

27:59

I don't think I don't think, well, I don't

28:01

think it's possible to to to be

28:03

grateful in those moments. I mean, there's

28:05

one of that's one of those like when you're in a in a bad space

28:08

and somebody's like, well, that's a chance to grow. You're kind of like,

28:10

I'm going to strangle you,

28:11

like you know, But but it's it's such

28:13

a true thing. I mean, it's one of those things that's interesting, too

28:16

helpful to try and get to that perspective,

28:19

but it isn't usually like to

28:21

your point, sometimes the only way through the pain is

28:23

really through the pain. Yes,

28:25

And no one's allowed to tell you, no

28:28

one is allowed to try to give you perspective when you're

28:30

in the middle of your pain. That's my role.

28:32

Even if everybody knows it's

28:35

all going to be good, and if everybody knows

28:37

it's all happening for a reason, no

28:39

one's allowed to say it until

28:42

the person who's in the pain says it

28:45

exactly. You use the phrase a

28:47

lot, just show up. But I've been exploring the idea

28:50

of bringing our whole selves

28:52

to every situation that we end up in

28:54

it's it's easy at least for me to bring

28:57

one person to solding

29:00

situation in a different person to playing

29:03

music or I mean not different people,

29:05

but only certain elements of

29:07

you know, of ourselves, and you have a You

29:10

said, the problem with surface conversations,

29:12

which it's easy to get into and all those situations,

29:14

is that you stay lonely all the time

29:17

because everybody's surface is different. But

29:20

if you take the chance and a leap of faith and

29:22

you go deeper, you find that at those

29:24

deeper levels were all the same. Yeah,

29:26

And I think the blessing of

29:29

figuring out of that out is that I

29:31

was forced to because I'm just a raging, raging

29:33

introvert. Put me in a cocktail party

29:36

with people talking about the weather, and I can't

29:38

handle it. I mean, my husband and I actually

29:40

have these like hand emotions where he tells me

29:42

that stop, like you know, she just

29:45

asked about you know, the kids. You don't need to talk about

29:47

your depression or whatever, like, because I

29:49

tend to go it's like this,

29:51

you know, this throat like he's

29:54

like making the slash

29:56

across the throat, like no, Glennan, We're

29:58

just at the playground. It's the more subtle about blia.

30:01

Yeah. Yeah, So I'm

30:03

learning that there are, you know,

30:05

places that are good for it and are not. But

30:07

I don't know. I find something magical

30:11

between people. Seems to happen when

30:14

I say the thing that I'm really thinking instead

30:16

of the thing I think I'm supposed to say. You

30:18

know, it feels like going off

30:21

script, you know, it feels like we all have

30:23

to we're supposed to be. I sometimes feel

30:25

like I'm like in a show, Like

30:27

I'm on a in a play, and I

30:29

already know what everyone's going to say,

30:31

and then I have to say my lines, and

30:34

all day it feels kind of crazy to me,

30:36

like why don't we all just say what we're thinking.

30:39

I like that lady in the grocery store. I

30:41

mean, she changed my life, that lady

30:44

who grabbed my I d

30:46

and told me that little story. Like she was going completely

30:48

off script with me. She

30:51

was just supposed to say, here's your bag, haven't

30:53

I stay? And instead she stopped and saw

30:55

me as a human being and probably saw

30:58

my pain and had something beautiful to offer

31:00

me, and so she did it. Even it was kind of weird and

31:03

truly changed my thinking

31:06

that day. So I

31:09

don't know. I do. I

31:11

do think that we stay on the surface

31:13

with people. You know, we talk about

31:15

our I don't know, religion

31:18

and cars and countertops.

31:21

Yeah,

31:24

and I and that's

31:26

fine. But I do

31:28

think that's why we were lonely, because

31:31

those like you said, those surface things are all

31:33

different. But I have learned because I tell my

31:35

story so honestly in

31:38

my books and online. The

31:40

most by far, the most transformative

31:42

and beautiful and holy part of my work is

31:45

not the writing. And it's not the speaking,

31:47

although I do that a lot. It's the reading and the

31:49

listening, because I spend part

31:51

of my day every single day reading

31:54

letters from women all over the world. They

31:57

write to me. They tell me their stories, like their stories,

32:00

like the stuff they've never told anyone.

32:02

And that daily

32:04

practice of just I call

32:06

it just being broken hearted. Like I'm just gonna sit here and

32:09

I'm just gonna be broken hearted for you. I'm just gonna read your story.

32:11

I'm just gonna hold some space

32:13

in my day and my heart to

32:16

just hear you. So

32:18

how that word brave is

32:20

is interesting. So you started

32:23

writing, you know you're. One of the things you're known

32:25

for, is how just very

32:28

incredibly honest and upfront you are about

32:30

what's going on in your life. When

32:32

you started doing that, you were

32:35

I believe you were a school teacher at the time.

32:38

How hard was it for you to start doing

32:40

that? Um? Did you wrestle with

32:42

that in the beginning? You probably still do, But

32:45

did you wrestle with that more in the beginning,

32:47

And did you wrestle with it particularly because you're like,

32:49

well, I'm going to go back into this school and

32:52

you know, I'm going to work with these people that have just read

32:54

these incredibly intimate things about me. How

32:56

did you deal with that? Yeah, Like my husband

32:58

said, well, I hope it's right. Thing worked out because you've

33:01

rendered yourself completely unemployable, And

33:05

I was kind of like, that's awesome. That

33:08

is awesome. I accidentally can never get

33:10

a job again. That's amazing. Um,

33:13

well, listen, this is how that happened. It actually,

33:17

so, I was feeling like when I started

33:19

just dripping with babies. I had so many kids, and I

33:21

was had been sober for um,

33:24

I guess six years, and I was starting to

33:26

have those moments where I remembered why I started drinking,

33:28

you know, like, oh my gosh, life is so hard, and

33:31

I started to get some shame, and that, of course, shame

33:34

is like the kiss of death raddicts. And so

33:36

I did know that art and service art

33:38

and service, art and service, and

33:40

so I really did want to start

33:43

writing, but I was lazy about it. So

33:45

one day I was passing the computer and there was

33:47

this um thing going on on Facebook

33:49

called the Things, and so people

33:52

were just listing quick things about themselves,

33:55

and so I thought, h I could do that. I could make a quick list.

33:58

So I made a list, walked away, m

34:01

came back to the computer like twenty minutes later in my

34:03

inbox smashed with

34:05

so many emails, and this list have been shared so

34:07

many times. Well, I

34:09

of course did not read anyone

34:11

else's list before I

34:13

did. Mind, so this is okay. Let me give you

34:15

an example of my number six, because it's like

34:18

etched into my brain forever. So I'm

34:20

sweating right now as I'm trying as I'm telling you this,

34:22

because it was so such an embarrassing situation.

34:25

But my number six was I'm

34:28

a recovering food, alcohol and drug

34:30

addict. But I still sometimes

34:33

miss booze in the same twisted way

34:35

that you can miss someone who

34:37

beats you and repeatedly leaves you for dead.

34:40

Okay, here's

34:42

my friend Lisa's numbers. My

34:45

favorite wood is Hummus. Okay,

34:49

that's how my entire list was.

34:52

Everyone, all of the all the numbers were

34:54

like that. No, it

34:57

was I remember calling my sister and saying,

34:59

how do I get it back? And she she was saying, you can't.

35:01

That's it's out there, it's done. You can just step away

35:03

from the computer. And so it

35:06

was terrifying. But listen, the amazing

35:09

thing was is that when I checked my email

35:11

box and started reading these emails, they

35:13

were some people that I've known my entire

35:16

life, but who were like introducing

35:18

themselves to me for the first time. They

35:21

were saying, I just read your list.

35:24

I can't believe it. My sister is

35:26

so depressed. I won't know how to help her. I

35:28

just read your list, and I'm struggling

35:30

so much in my marriage. I don't know her to talk to it about

35:32

it. I just read your list and my brother's

35:35

an addict and we're so sad. I mean, it

35:37

was like people telling me that, and

35:39

I was like, I was almost pissed because I was

35:41

like, what are we doing? Why aren't we even

35:43

calling each other friends? We

35:46

sit together and we're talking about these things that don't

35:48

matter when you're in so much pain and

35:50

I have the same pain, And the next

35:52

got to be what we're here for to

35:55

talk about this stuff? You know. So

35:58

I don't know that's it was an accident and

36:02

I didn't really understand what I was doing, um

36:06

when I put that list out there. But that was the day

36:08

that I learned maybe this whole like shameless

36:11

um revealing of myself could

36:14

actually be used to sort of unlock

36:16

people. Oh, it absolutely

36:18

can, and yet it's still sort of a frightening

36:22

thing. I mean, I'm at a point with the show where there's

36:24

a lot of visibility, but it's not what what I

36:26

do full time. I still do some different

36:28

consulting work, and occasionally I'll walk into

36:31

a consulting place and people start me like I listen to your

36:33

podcast. I heard your podcast, And my immediate

36:35

reaction is, oh shit, Like you

36:37

know, like I wonder what thing I said

36:40

last time, but what's been to

36:42

your point exactly? The amazing thing is

36:45

that nine times out of ten they go on to say

36:47

something about themselves that

36:49

I never would have known I would have had. I

36:51

mean, we would have just kept skimming along on

36:53

the same level. And all of a sudden, now most

36:56

of these people are are saying something to me. I'm like, well,

36:58

I didn't pig that. I and see that. But

37:01

the level of relationship

37:03

deepens. It's funny that

37:06

for every nine experiences, the one

37:09

one that is maybe more. I wouldn't even go so

37:11

far as to call him bad, but maybe lukewarm

37:14

is still sometimes enough to for

37:17

that fear to start to see back

37:19

in. And it's sort of a conscious going

37:21

against that consistently and saying nope, I'm

37:24

you know, I'm just going to keep doing what

37:26

I'm doing. I'm gonna keep bringing who I am to every

37:28

situation that's right. And if we

37:30

didn't have that one that it wouldn't be brave. Good

37:33

point. Good point. If

37:35

if everybody was just telling us how awesome

37:37

we were all the time, something

37:39

would be missing in it, right, because there

37:42

has to be a struggle in it. I don't

37:44

know, there has to be sort

37:46

of there has to be a constant overcoming

37:49

as I know a truth teller and an artist.

37:51

Otherwise, what's the point. I mean, I think that's part

37:53

of the growth for us is to

37:55

be is to be a little scared and do it anyway.

38:30

So I've got just a couple more things. Although

38:32

I could probably do this for about the next

38:34

four hours, and I know that how

38:37

long how long before the kids go to bed? How

38:39

much longer do we have to I don't even Okay,

38:41

I'm not even sucking in the fine out there.

38:44

Well, I think we're trying to avoid that, to avoid

38:47

you having to put them to bed. So that's

38:49

the point here. The point here is that

38:52

we continue until they are silent trying

38:54

to figure out. So then I just get to go out and learn how

38:56

long do we have to keep this going forever?

38:59

You're islence your desire to do that with Chris's

39:02

desire to go to bed himself here

39:04

shortly. Um so,

39:07

But speaking of parenting, I haven't known

39:09

your story that long, so, but it seems to me like there

39:11

was a point where you wrote something about

39:13

not always enjoying parenting, and there was there

39:15

was some degree of controversy

39:18

about that. But what I wanted to talk about

39:20

and that were two things that I thought was was really

39:22

interesting. One was you're not enjoying

39:24

certain parts of parenting, which I think is a completely

39:27

obvious statement, like, yeah, it's not. It's

39:29

not always fun. I can't even

39:33

Yeah, it's it's just completely obvious to me. But

39:35

what you talk about was the double guilt about

39:37

parenting, about Okay, I'm not doing

39:40

it well, which I think every parent

39:42

has, right, I mean, that's at

39:44

least I do on a on a consistent basis

39:47

as well as now I also

39:49

feel guilty because I'm not enjoying it enough.

39:51

And and I talked on the show a lot

39:53

about this idea of layering suffering

39:56

on top of suffering, like I feel

39:58

bad because I feel like I'm depressed,

40:00

and now I feel bad because I shouldn't be depressed.

40:03

And I was really struck by that. So

40:05

can you explain a little bit about

40:07

what was going on or it probably still does

40:09

go on with you related to that. Yeah,

40:12

So, so things are a little different from me

40:14

right now because my kids are a little bit older there, twelve,

40:17

nine and six right now. But there

40:20

was a time when they were don't

40:22

check my mouth because I'm awful at numbers and our

40:24

words, girl, but they were little. They were like five three

40:26

and zero, you know, they were just tiny,

40:29

and I was, you know, like

40:31

a friend Stark, I was dripping with children and

40:33

Nan, I love my kids like everyone

40:36

does, but there's something about parenting young children

40:38

that just brings the anger.

40:40

You know. It's like you don't even know. I heard somebody say

40:42

once you don't know how angry you are actually have kids, and you don't

40:44

know how selfish you are actually get married. Like I

40:48

feel that to be true. We're

40:50

not allowed to say that. I don't know why I think that.

40:53

I think we make parenting harder by

40:55

just walking around pretending it's not hard, you

40:57

know. I think the one thing we could do to probably

40:59

make an eier for each other is to admit out loud

41:01

that it gets really freaking hard and

41:04

lonely and scary. Um

41:06

not because we don't love them, because we love

41:08

them so much and so we're

41:10

terrified that we're doing wrong and not

41:12

giving them what they need and not good enough for them.

41:15

Um. So yeah, I mean, I don't know. I would be

41:17

at Target, and like, I don't know if we live people

41:19

with young children with at Target. We all live at Target,

41:22

and we I would be checking

41:24

out, and you know, there would be like one tanting

41:26

on the ground. I'd be like moving her forward like you

41:28

do with your luggage, and the you

41:30

know, airport line just like pulling her by her

41:32

jacket forward because she was screaming. And one would

41:35

you know, you have like a bra on his head. And then I'll

41:37

be tangering and you know, I'm just like counting

41:39

the minutes till I get out there, and some woman

41:42

who it was always an older woman would

41:44

always stop me and just say the following

41:46

words, Oh,

41:49

honey, I just hope you're enjoying

41:51

every moment because it just goes by

41:53

so fast. And now I

41:55

understand. I get it, like I get their nostalgia.

41:58

I already get their nostalgia. And my

42:00

kids are you know, they're they're not babies anymore,

42:02

and I already feel it. I get it. But

42:05

it's just an example of what we talked about before,

42:07

how you don't like step into someone's painful

42:10

moment and like shame

42:12

them for it. And it really did feel like a shaming,

42:14

you know, because I would just want to say, what part

42:16

of this looks enjoyable right now? Because

42:19

now not only am I

42:21

stressed and sad, but I'm also shamed

42:25

because I feel like I'm

42:27

not doing this right. And now I feel guilty

42:29

because I feel like I'm supposed to be enjoying it too.

42:32

And you know, I think there's a I always

42:34

knew, even when the hardest moments

42:36

with my little ones, I always knew

42:39

that there was something really precious um

42:42

and something to be treasured and cherished

42:45

about most moments, but as

42:47

sure as hell, didn't enjoy a

42:49

lot of it. And I

42:52

think that is okay. It's like this idea

42:55

of you know, the end

42:57

both of life, that you can

43:00

find um, parenthood and your

43:02

children to be absolutely beautiful and

43:04

also completely brutal. All the best things

43:06

in my life are that way. My marriage absolutely

43:09

one of the most precious and beautiful parts of my life

43:11

and absolutely one of the hardest. I think there's

43:14

there's no doubt. And it's it's back to that sort

43:16

of very fundamental idea of of

43:19

m only trying to recognize

43:21

or find the good parts of something and deny

43:24

that those other parts are there,

43:26

which they absolutely are. And and

43:29

and I think it is that when we start

43:31

feeling bad about the fact that

43:33

we feel just like everybody else does,

43:36

but since we tend to not talk

43:38

about it, we don't know that everybody feels that way.

43:40

I know now we feel so alone and ashamed,

43:43

and I I do. Here's

43:46

here's something that I think is true. It might sound

43:48

obnoxious, and I've never said

43:50

it before, so I'm just trying it out here, but

43:53

I really do

43:55

believe. I mean I

43:57

hinted at it before, but I think that

44:00

the fact that I am willing and

44:02

able and often do step

44:05

right into the how hard this is and

44:07

how brutal this is and

44:09

admit to you know, the down

44:12

moments, um,

44:14

I feel like I am able

44:17

to enjoy

44:20

and like, um grasp

44:23

beauty in a way that I'm

44:25

not sure everyone does. I

44:27

really, I mean I cry at freaking

44:29

trees. I can't sit at church without

44:32

crying six times. I mostly

44:34

just want to. I can be out at dinner

44:36

and I just want to like stand up and clap for

44:38

everyone in the room because I'm so proud of everyone

44:41

for just you know, being vertical

44:43

and because life is so hard and we are doing such

44:45

a good job, and just you know, I have

44:48

made an intense um

44:52

capacity for joy and beauty.

44:55

And I don't think that's an accident, you know.

44:57

I think it's because I'm also willing

45:00

to just sit in the value well one of the

45:02

first things I heard in recovery that I

45:04

well, I heard a lot of things, but I do remember that idea

45:07

of you can't selectively

45:09

repress um. You

45:11

can't. It's like you just

45:13

basically you you're gonna

45:15

you're gonna repress everything. You're gonna turn the volume

45:18

down on everything. And I know that's

45:20

true, certainly in my case. So

45:22

I think it's I think you're absolutely right. I think that

45:25

I never get into

45:27

sort of like, well, I don't know how everybody

45:29

else is doing, but I just know for me when

45:31

I am that numb is sort of

45:33

numb across the board is Yeah, the bad turns

45:36

down, but so does so does the good.

45:38

So you do feel that way, like you feel like the more,

45:41

the deeper you get into sobriety, I

45:43

like how you said the volume was turned up. It does

45:45

feel like that, doesn't it, Like the colors are turned up,

45:47

the volume is turned up. Sometimes the pain is

45:49

turned up. But it kind of feels like,

45:52

yeah, I mean, I go, But I mean I think it's

45:54

not been a you know, the mountains and the

45:56

valleys, you know idea that it's I

45:58

don't think any of this is linear.

46:00

It's not like I just keep getting better, keep getting

46:03

better. It's like it it goes up,

46:05

it goes down. And I think there are times that I've

46:07

been more open to life and and

46:09

more open to feeling things, and I do across

46:11

the board, and I think there's other times where I get

46:13

into more of a pattern of sort of just trying

46:16

to turn it all down. Maybe not in the in

46:18

the dramatic fashion as dramatically

46:21

as I used to, but there's plenty of other

46:23

ways to numb or to

46:25

to lessen our ability to

46:27

feel. And I think we it's very easy to use

46:30

personal development and spirituality in

46:32

that way. We had a guest on who called

46:34

it the spiritual bypass, and I was like, that's exactly

46:36

it. It's like and and in recovery

46:39

programs that is a I think that's a

46:41

very common one is you

46:43

know, oh, it's all happening for a reason. We

46:45

tell ourselves that so quickly right,

46:48

just to not feel just okay, God, that

46:50

will you know? Or or you know, I

46:52

think service is so important, but

46:54

I know in in recovery there's sometimes

46:56

it's like a bad mood starts

46:59

to enter the room anywhere, and it's like you gotta work

47:01

with another person, right, you gotta you gotta do something

47:03

like like, all right, let's just relax

47:05

a little so I can get into that with work

47:08

or anything. But I do think it's a true

47:10

statement of you can't. You

47:12

can't selectively repress things. Is

47:15

refusing to try to fix things too fast.

47:18

We had a guest on the interview hasn't

47:20

come out yet, but he said something. His

47:22

name is David K. Reynolds, and he wrote

47:24

a book called Constructive Living, which is, um,

47:28

it would be interesting to explore in context

47:30

of what we're talking about here, but he has something

47:32

that he said that really struck me. And

47:34

he he's very focused on behavior.

47:36

You know that that you

47:39

you drive, you drive change in your

47:41

life by behavior, which I think is very

47:43

much a a partially

47:46

true statement. Um. But what he said

47:48

that for people who don't have their behavior

47:51

under control, they're

47:53

more afraid of feelings because

47:55

those feelings have the ability to

47:58

just lead you way, way

48:00

off track. But that if you if

48:02

you get to the place where you've got your behavior

48:04

on some degree of control, you

48:06

can feel that full range of emotions

48:09

with less fear about what's going to happen.

48:11

That really that really hit me. Strongly.

48:14

It's that idea. I have a little sticky on my

48:17

um little mirror above my computer

48:19

sys structure liberates

48:22

and I feel like that is so

48:25

important for me. I

48:28

think that's important for a lot of people who are in

48:30

you know, the creative world or recovering

48:33

people. Oh my gosh,

48:35

I have to stick to my like daily disciplines.

48:38

I think people would be surprised by how structured

48:40

I am actually, um,

48:43

And it does feel safe

48:46

for being me and

48:48

knowing that I'm going to have a

48:51

wide range of emotions throughout the day.

48:53

It feels safe knowing that they're

48:55

all going to happen within a

48:57

structure that I already have in

49:00

the up and make sense.

49:03

Yeah, because I think at least

49:05

for me, you know, if I go way back

49:07

into those really bad years, a

49:10

particularly sad feeling

49:12

could just lead to you know, weeks

49:14

of even beyond the normal

49:16

destructive behavior, right, and that's scary.

49:19

Whereas now I think there's a structure

49:21

in my life that I go, Okay, well I can handle

49:23

this. I don't. Yeah, I can feel that without

49:25

going on a on a twelve day bender.

49:28

Yeah. Yeah, But isn't

49:30

it weird because it's like the second you think you figure

49:32

something out, every nothing

49:34

is black and white because it's like you're

49:36

exactly right and like, yes, we need to feel

49:38

at all. But then in my head, I

49:40

know I can hear my therapist saying, actually, glad,

49:43

and you're not going to feel your way out of anything. You have

49:45

to just do something right, Like

49:49

you have to do what you need to do, regardless

49:51

of how you feel about

49:54

what you need to do. So, um,

49:56

yeah, there's a big gray

49:59

area and it's all a balance of feeling

50:01

and doing. I guess that's such a common

50:03

thing that that's one of the probably the most prevalent

50:05

thing we talked about on the show is that, Um,

50:09

you know, you've got to take the phrase

50:11

that that I use and I probably

50:13

got I'm sure I got it somewhere

50:16

in recovery. As you can't think your way

50:19

in the right action you sometimes you have to act your

50:21

way into right thinking. And I'm just

50:23

interested in that idea of how

50:26

thoughts, emotions,

50:28

and actions all interact

50:31

with each other in some extraordinarily complex

50:33

way, but that sometimes we can use

50:35

one of those, if we can get a handle on one of

50:38

those, we can use it as a lever to

50:40

work with the other ones and different

50:42

that different lever seems to work better for

50:45

different types of things or situations.

50:48

I have to remind myself all the time that I

50:50

am part mind, part body, part

50:52

spirit, and that there's three

50:54

lives going on every single day.

50:57

And if if it were up to me, I would

50:59

just stay in my mind all day

51:01

and I would go I would be

51:03

back where I was, you know, um,

51:06

because the mind is a beautiful and terrifying

51:09

place to live. So I

51:12

have that's part of my discipline of my structure,

51:14

is that every day I can spend

51:17

I don't let myself right all day,

51:20

and that would not be good for me. I let

51:22

myself write for a few hours a day,

51:24

and then I'm doing some some kind of

51:26

like body stuff from

51:29

exercise, even though it's not my natural

51:31

want to do that. But and

51:34

I have to have some stillness every day

51:37

because of that spirit part. And that's

51:39

what tends to keep me healthy, is just remembering

51:42

that I'm a triangle and that I have to address

51:44

each day the three different parts

51:46

of myself. That's a very good way to think

51:48

about it, and that that resonates very much with me.

51:51

And when I'm doing

51:53

the best is when it's all those things are

51:55

being taken care of, don't

51:57

you think? And then it's like this weird thing, like

51:59

I'll be having the this challenge writing

52:01

and I can sit I could sit in front of my computer all

52:04

day and try to figure it out and I won't work. But

52:06

then like if I remember that I have a body and

52:08

I go for a walk or go for a job,

52:11

like magically, halfway through the job, the

52:13

mind thing gets worked out, Like

52:16

I figure out when you said the lever thing, I'm like,

52:18

what is that? It's exactly right, Like why

52:21

it's not even just I'm addressing my body

52:23

right now. It's like, okay, I'm going to

52:25

remember I have a body, and then my body will

52:27

help take care of this mind thing. I can't figure

52:30

out. It is all so weird

52:32

and connected. It totally

52:34

is. And and I think that's why I'm always

52:37

when people talk about, like, you know, is the

52:39

is there a mind body connection, I'm always like, I'm

52:42

yes, Like how is that even a question?

52:46

I've been listening to The Smiths and Old

52:48

Band a lot, and one of the quotes is does

52:50

the mind rule the body or does the body rule the

52:52

mind? And I think the answer is

52:54

both. Yes. The

52:57

answer is both, absolutely,

52:59

and there's just people who tend to I

53:02

think people who identify most with their mind have

53:05

to work to live

53:07

the life of the body. And

53:10

you know, my husband's opposite. He's an athlete,

53:12

he's an athlete his whole life. He would

53:15

live his whole life in his body. He has to work

53:17

to address the mind part. And

53:20

that's really been interesting. I mean, that's some part of the journey

53:22

we've been working on with our but with

53:24

our my own marriage is like we

53:28

live two different ways, um,

53:32

and that's just been fascinating. I certainly

53:34

have not even come close to unraveling all of

53:36

that, but it's just a new journey.

53:39

Yeah. I think the amazing part of that is when

53:41

you've got that kind of difference, if you can find a way

53:44

that those differences compliment

53:47

and support each other, it's so powerful. And

53:49

then the flip side of that is when they don't, it's so

53:51

so hard. That's right. We're hoping we're

53:53

going to get to the beautiful

53:56

part. It's going to be just amazing, But right

53:58

now, all the time, always

54:01

amazing, totally totally

54:03

amazing, all the time. Yes, exactly.

54:06

We'll let me know when that happens. Right,

54:08

that's right, I'll call you right away. We'll

54:11

get you, we'll get you back on the show, and you can solve

54:13

this for all of us once and for all. Yeah, you'll

54:15

have to get me on real quick before it all falls apart

54:17

again, exactly that five minutes.

54:20

It's all perfect. Well,

54:24

thank you so much. This has been really

54:26

a great time. And like I said, I could, uh,

54:28

I could do it a long time, but we're

54:30

already like double the normal show length, so I'm

54:32

going to show some degree of discipline here structure

54:36

as you say. I'm just grateful.

54:38

Thank you. It's been a great conversation.

54:41

Yeah, it really has. Thank you so much for taking

54:43

the time to do it. And let's keep

54:45

in touch. Let's please do and

54:47

thank you. I just love you show. I'm so grateful

54:50

to be part of it and just keep doing your work.

54:52

It's so important and so good and so helpful.

54:55

Thank you so much, you too, thank you,

54:57

good bye. And as a reminder,

55:04

as a reminder, if you're interested in doing some one

55:06

on one work with me, I

55:08

might need a second here. And

55:10

as a final reminder, if you're interested in

55:12

doing some one on one work with

55:16

me, and

55:20

you want some laughs, send an email to Eric

55:22

at one you feed dot net. Thanks. You

55:41

can learn more about Glenn and Mountain Doyle and

55:43

this podcast at one you feed

55:46

dot net Slash Doyle