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I love this story and I think you will

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too. And

1:00

I'm your host, Kate Bowler. So

1:30

what makes a person risk their own well-being

1:32

for someone else? My

1:35

guest today has been asking that question for

1:37

a long time. Today I'm

1:40

speaking with Dr. Abigail Marsh. She

1:43

is a professor in the Department of Psychology and

1:46

the Interdisciplinary Neuroscience Program at

1:48

Georgetown University. She

1:50

received her PhD from Harvard and

1:52

did postdoc research at the National Institutes of Health.

1:55

Which is to say, she's amazing and I'm so

1:57

grateful to be speaking to a fellow. incredible

6:00

compassion for a prisoner he couldn't

6:02

physically see through a

6:04

prisoner wall and who was in fact a clan

6:06

member. So I kept thinking of

6:09

him in reading your work. Why is someone

6:11

like that so extraordinary? We're just going to

6:13

goose bounce from that story. That's a great

6:15

one. Yeah. So this gets to a puzzle

6:17

that I've spent a lot of time thinking

6:20

about lately, which is how is it that

6:22

our brain knows where our body ends and

6:24

the rest of the world begin? Our

6:27

brains don't assume that we end at the

6:30

barrier of our skin. And there's

6:32

all sorts of interesting ways we know this. We know,

6:35

for example, that when people use a tool, for example,

6:37

if you're using it as a long pole to do

6:39

some sort of a task, your brain

6:41

understands that tool as sort of your

6:43

cooperator. And it starts remodeling your brain

6:45

to incorporate that tool as though it's

6:47

an extension of your own body. Oh

6:50

my gosh. Your motor cortex starts to

6:52

change so that it understands

6:54

you as ending at the end of that tool

6:56

instead of a, and your brain does this really

6:58

quickly. And we know it does this with people

7:00

too. So there's this famous thing called rubber hand

7:02

illusion, where you, you

7:07

show somebody and you position this rubber hand, it

7:09

doesn't even look that realistic. And

7:11

then they put their own hand under the table.

7:13

And then some poor research assistant has to stroke

7:16

the, the own

7:18

hand with a little paintbrush and

7:21

perfect ink grenade so that you're feeling the

7:23

sensation on your own hand and seeing it

7:25

on the rubber hand. And in most people,

7:27

you get a very quick illusion that happens

7:29

where the rubber hand, you start to feel

7:31

like it's your own. And you

7:33

feel like weird things happen to the biology of

7:36

your own arm, like your body starts like, like

7:38

rejecting it, aperture will drop in your own

7:40

arm, like weird, and even changes happen, and

7:42

your body's like, well, guess this is my

7:44

new arm. And

7:47

you'll, you know, you'll have really strong emotional reactions

7:49

if somebody moves to like hit the rubber arm

7:51

and a hammer. I

7:54

love this. I love this study so much

7:57

already. I love it so much. I just, I find

7:59

it such an interesting. study. And so your

8:01

body is constantly trying to figure out like who's

8:03

me and who's not me. And I

8:05

think something that's really interesting about humans and it's

8:07

really intrinsic to our being so social is our

8:10

brains are kind of like, come on, come on.

8:12

Like I am perfectly willing to think about having

8:14

a wider identity than just the

8:16

boundaries of my own skin. And that is what

8:18

it means to have a close bond with another

8:20

person. It's like they are really a part of

8:22

you. Yeah. You

8:25

know, your brain has broadened

8:28

the boundaries of you to incorporate that person into your

8:30

identity. And so it makes sense that we can do

8:32

that more easily for people who we know very well,

8:34

you know, we know them so well that I mean,

8:36

you know, I feel like this is my husband, like

8:38

he just feels like a part of myself now, you

8:41

know, like twins, of course, feel its way. But even

8:43

people who are just sort of similar to us, we get

8:45

them, we can predict what they're going to do, we understand

8:47

them, we can sort of imagine the experiences they're having, you

8:49

know, all the signals to your brain like, Oh, yeah, yeah,

8:51

yeah, this is funny. This is a little bit of meanness.

8:54

And all sorts of interesting social phenomena are

8:56

designed to promote that feeling. So for people,

8:59

when people are dancing together, when they're singing

9:01

together, when you're behaving in unison with other

9:03

people, it sort of promotes that feeling of

9:05

we're all part of one entity. Yes,

9:08

yes, yes. That makes sense.

9:10

I love to the Valentine's Day cards

9:12

that could be an extension of this,

9:14

like you are my rubber hand. When

9:18

I see you, I see a very

9:20

close approximation of myself, but out in the

9:22

world. That is amazing.

9:24

Because I, you know, we

9:27

talk a lot here about

9:29

interdependence and what makes this

9:31

beautiful porousness between us and, and like

9:34

the work of empathy, right? That like

9:36

that, that seems to fill up the

9:38

space and what you're describing to just

9:40

neurologically, it's kind of wonderful that

9:43

ourselves are not maybe as contained as we

9:45

imagine. Exactly. And it, you know, it's a

9:47

nice, it kind of makes you feel a

9:49

little less lonely. But what's

9:51

neat is that even though, yes, it is

9:53

easier for us to have these strong sort

9:56

of empathic experiences with people

9:58

who are more familiar or more so. So

14:00

you became so curious about the kind of empathy that may

14:02

have stumped Charles Darwin, like

14:17

things that seem to go against

14:19

the laws of nature that people

14:21

are primarily self-interested. What makes

14:23

that kind of altruism so extraordinary?

14:26

The kind of altruism I am

14:28

most interested in is when people

14:30

take extreme measures to help strangers

14:32

in particular. And that's interesting

14:34

because you can't explain it according to either kin

14:36

selection or reciprocal altruism. It doesn't fit into either

14:38

one of those models. And yet it happens. Like

14:40

we know it happens. It happened to

14:42

me. Like it happens to lots of people. So

14:44

it needs an explanation. And

14:47

I just found myself unsatisfied with

14:50

some of the other going explanations

14:52

out there, like people who help

14:54

strangers without fear. They

14:57

just don't recognize risk because that is

14:59

not what you hear in the narratives

15:02

told by many heroic rescuers. I love

15:04

the story of Cory Booker, for example.

15:07

He's one of my favorite real life

15:09

heroic rescuers. He was terrified the entire

15:11

time he was running through

15:13

a burning house to save his neighbor from dying in

15:15

a fire. Oh my gosh. He

15:18

came up with nine different ways

15:20

in interviews to talk about how terrified he

15:22

was, but he did it anyway. That's to

15:24

me the most amazing thing about real heroes

15:26

is that they are scared and they

15:28

are brave at the same time. And

15:31

that's real virtue. And to me, trying to

15:34

understand where that comes from is the really

15:36

interesting mystery. Yeah. You're

15:38

describing such ancient questions, which I

15:40

love, right? This very age old

15:42

debate about how good or how

15:45

evil we truly are. I'm

15:47

a professor of Christian history, and so we

15:49

have these ongoing debates about what we call,

15:51

this will all sound familiar to you, but

15:53

high or low anthropology, right? Like in a

15:56

high anthropology, and this is also

15:58

the anthropology of self-help too, which is is that

16:00

you can teach people to do almost anything

16:02

that they can put their minds to. Being

16:04

better is about education and progress. And

16:07

then in low anthropology, they teach that people

16:09

are basically terrible and that we all need

16:12

saving. What kind

16:14

of anthropology does your work

16:16

suggest? I really feel like an

16:18

important component of my work is that I don't

16:20

ignore either end of the spectrum. And

16:23

the research I do in altruism, really

16:25

important part of my sort of understanding

16:27

of altruism derived from the fact that

16:30

in my postdoctoral work, I studied people who were

16:32

the opposite of altruistic, who were psychopathic, who do

16:34

not care about other people, and they really don't.

16:37

I think there's a sort of common myth about psychopathy that

16:42

people who are psychopathic are sort of really hurting

16:44

inside and have a lot of really a lot

16:47

of self-loathing. And if you could just maybe

16:49

do to prior trauma or abuse, and if you could just work

16:52

through that, there would be a kind,

16:55

compassionate person underneath. Now that is something

16:57

that can happen. There are many people

16:59

from that's exactly what their deal is. They are

17:01

hurting and there's a lot of self-loathing due to

17:03

abuse or trauma. And if you work through that,

17:05

a kind person is there underneath. I've met

17:07

many people like that. That's not psychopathy. Psychopathy

17:11

does not result from abuse or

17:13

trauma. That's other problems result from

17:15

abuse and trauma. It's a personality

17:18

disorder that's associated with

17:20

really not caring about other people. Like you care

17:22

about yourself in this present moment and that's it.

17:24

Yeah. I think it's important to

17:26

acknowledge that there are differences in how much

17:28

people care about others. And there are some people in the world

17:30

who really don't care about other people. And

17:33

that exists. And I think it doesn't do any good to

17:35

pretend that it doesn't. But the

17:37

flip side of it, because people say, oh, isn't

17:39

so depressing to research like Hopdam. Like it's the

17:41

opposite because what it has convinced

17:43

me of is how not normal selfishness

17:46

is. If

17:48

everybody was selfish, like some economists still

17:50

insist is true, then there

17:52

would be no such thing as somebody who is psychopathic.

17:54

That would just be a normal person. But

17:57

the fact that people who are psychopathic are

17:59

so. different. I mean, and

18:01

I should also mention that the average person who psychopathic

18:03

is not like a Ted Bundy murderer,

18:05

that you know, many people are psychopathic

18:08

aren't even violent. They're just terribly callous

18:11

and manipulative and narcissistic

18:13

and deceitful. That's not

18:15

normal. And how like, what a beautiful thing that

18:17

is, that actually the average person is very

18:20

capable of caring about others. And

18:22

that there's a spectrum. So that, you know, we've

18:24

gotten the very low end, we have people who

18:26

are psychopathic who are pretty rare. We've got most

18:28

of us who are in the middle, who are

18:30

pretty compassionate and could always become more so. But

18:34

then at the high end, we have

18:36

some people who are really unusually caring,

18:38

compassionate, who really are sort of, you

18:40

know, moral exemplars that we can all look to for

18:42

inspiration. We're

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going to take a quick break to tell you

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about all the sponsors of Everything Happens. Don't go

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anywhere. We'll be right back. This

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That's ritual.com/everything happens for 25%

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off. I

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was so struck by, um, this

21:37

research that you're describing the, your

21:40

work interviewing kids who displayed this

21:42

psychopathic behavior. One of the

21:44

things we've talked about with

21:46

guests like Andrew Solomon is, is

21:48

the cost to parents who are,

21:50

who are not sure how to,

21:52

how to manage the narrative that we have

21:55

that, that, that kids

21:58

with behavioral issues inherently must have. every

28:00

single fearful expression, which is that's pretty bad even

28:02

for somebody who's doing nothing. He knew he was

28:04

doing badly because he got to the very last

28:06

fearful expression in the set and he said, I

28:08

don't know what that expression

28:10

is called, but I know that's what people look

28:12

like right before you stab them. Okay. Right? I

28:14

mean, that's intense. So he's like, oh, yeah, I've

28:17

seen that face before. And I even can't believe

28:19

I've seen it when people believe that they were

28:21

about to be really hurt or killed. And

28:24

yet, I mean, imagine the mind that

28:26

couldn't come up with the feeling that

28:28

accompanies that face. Right? And that's a

28:30

real, I mean, that's a disability. It

28:32

really is. Yeah, that's right.

28:34

And so it appears to

28:36

be the case that being able to

28:38

empathize with other people's fear in particular,

28:40

it's just a really powerful marker for

28:42

your likelihood of experiencing compassion

28:45

when other people are experiencing fear or other

28:47

kinds of distress that are related to fear

28:49

and like sadness or pain or suffering. That

28:52

has got to be very comforting for all

28:54

the people out there right now who are

28:56

on the front lines

28:58

of COVID doing difficult, emotionally,

29:01

physically costly jobs to say, man,

29:03

no, I am allowed to be

29:05

afraid. I just happen to be

29:07

moving toward the fear. Right. There's this weird

29:09

belief out there that to be virtuous, you

29:11

have to not feel fear. And it's like,

29:13

no, no, no, like you should feel fear.

29:15

Fear is an important messenger. You shouldn't

29:18

assume it's the truth, right? Because everybody knows

29:20

people and most of us have fears of

29:22

things that are not really rational. But it's

29:24

a really important messenger. And

29:27

what it means to be courageous, and we've known

29:29

this since Aristotle, is

29:31

knowing when the fear is less

29:33

important than something that is

29:36

a higher purpose. I love when you

29:38

describe the extremely

29:41

altruistic, you describe them

29:43

as super recognizers. Why did you pick

29:45

that term? It's perfect. Well,

29:48

the people I've studied who

29:51

are some of the most altruistic people

29:53

that I, or I think most people can think of are

29:55

people who donate kidneys to strangers. I thought

29:57

for a while about who, you know, what's

29:59

the who

46:00

are pretty malign or callous,

46:02

having these unexpected encounters with

46:04

people who treat them with

46:07

kindness and force

46:10

them, that's what's called

46:12

a prediction error in psychology. I was predicting

46:14

something would happen, that people are bad, people

46:17

are bad, people are bad. And here's somebody

46:19

who had every right to treat me badly

46:21

and they were kind anyways. And

46:23

prediction errors are the root of all learning that

46:26

cause you to rethink your framework, that cause you

46:28

to have to realize that your understanding of the

46:30

world isn't complete. There are instances

46:33

where people who were even pretty malign were treated

46:35

kindly by somebody in a way that was so

46:37

surprising to them that it did change

46:39

the trajectory of their behavior towards other people because

46:41

it forced them to reconsider

46:44

their assumptions about other human beings. I

46:47

believe it's good to be compassionate towards other people because

46:49

of course it's the right thing to do. A human

46:51

being is a human being, even if they have personality

46:53

traits we don't like. But in

46:55

addition, there always is the chance

46:58

that your kindness will

47:00

change the trajectory of even the life

47:03

of a person who by all accounts is a

47:05

pretty malign person beyond help.

47:10

If say you're a parent or

47:12

you're somebody, you're in a caregiving

47:14

role in any way and you

47:17

notice behavior that may be psychopathic

47:20

or have some

47:23

iteration of oppositional defiance disorder or

47:27

any kind of these anti-social, is

47:31

that what we would describe it as? Learning

47:33

all the words as I'm staring at your face, Abby. How

47:37

do you direct people who are

47:40

in that discernment process of

47:43

what's going on and what they

47:45

as a caregiver might need? Absolutely.

47:51

So these disorders, you could sort

47:53

of loosely bend them as disruptive

47:56

behavior disorders in children, conduct disorder,

47:58

oppositional defiant disorder, or an

48:00

even broader umbrella is disorders of aggression,

48:03

like psychopathy is included in that. They're

48:05

common, right? So one

48:08

to 5% of the population may have one

48:10

of these disorders or be eligible for one

48:12

of them. Wow, that's a lot of people.

48:14

That's a very high number. Yeah, everybody knows

48:16

at least one person with a psychopathy, probably

48:19

more than one. And in kids,

48:21

these conduct disorder and opposite to find disorder,

48:23

even more common, maybe one in 10 kids

48:25

has one or both. And

48:27

so first parents should know they're not alone. This

48:31

is not this absurdly rare phenomena

48:34

that affects only them and that

48:36

there's, don't assume that there's not

48:38

a community of parents out there who are experiencing the

48:40

same things you are. It's just they're often quite silent

48:43

about their experiences because they feel ashamed. And

48:46

that's because there is this very popular

48:48

belief that

48:50

parents cause these kinds of behavioral outcomes

48:52

in children through their bad parenting. This

48:55

was a once upon a time,

48:57

also a common belief about

49:00

children with autism and children who

49:02

developed schizophrenia. And luckily as research has

49:04

progressed, we've understood that that's not

49:06

correct, right? That these are not disorders

49:08

caused by bad parenting. And so

49:11

parents of children with these traits need to understand that

49:13

the same thing is true. That said,

49:15

the good news is there are things

49:17

parents can do to help their kids.

49:19

And by far most

49:22

successful treatment therapies

49:25

are parent administered treatments. So a therapist

49:27

basically teaches you the kinds of practices

49:29

to use with your kids that can

49:31

help redirect their behavior. And

49:33

in a lot of cases can change, again, change

49:35

the trajectory along which that child is developing so

49:37

that they can flourish, so that they can live

49:39

a good life. And

49:42

the essence of these, all of these therapies is

49:44

the same, although there's lots of different kinds. And

49:46

that's that you have to start with a foundation

49:49

of care and love as a

49:51

parent with your child, obviously, any

49:55

sort of productive and fulfilling relationship

49:57

has to have a strong foundation of care and love.

50:00

know you love them, right? You need to make

50:02

it clear with your words, with your touch, right?

50:04

With the activities that you do together. You have

50:06

to have that. That said, despite

50:09

all the activities that you do together, you

50:11

have to have that. That said,

50:14

despite a lot of memes out there that love is

50:16

all children need, that is not all they

50:18

need. They definitely do need it.

50:21

It isn't necessary, but it doesn't

50:23

end. It's a good

50:25

start, but it is not a good

50:27

end. And so

50:29

the next thing that children need is

50:33

to learn the rules by which

50:35

people can form

50:37

productive social relationships. That they can't do

50:39

anything they want and have

50:41

good relationships with other people, right? Most children pick

50:43

this up on their own, right? They don't need

50:46

a lot of special training because they have the

50:48

neural architecture to just simply learn, oh, if I

50:50

do that, that upsets that person. I won't do

50:52

that anymore. Kids

50:54

who are at risk for developing psychopathy

50:56

or other disorders of aggression, they don't

50:58

have that, right? They don't learn that

51:00

easily and implicitly. And so

51:02

you as a parent have to create sort

51:05

of a learning environment that helps support basically

51:07

a child with a learning disability, you could

51:09

say, and make sure that they only get

51:11

the rewards they're looking for when they engage

51:13

in pro-social good behavior, right? You

51:15

don't want to rely on punishment because they

51:18

don't really respond to punishment, but they

51:20

are getting rewarded by their naughty

51:23

behaviors. They do find that intrinsically

51:25

rewarding. You have to find what those rewards

51:27

are that they're getting, whether that's getting a

51:30

rise out of somebody, getting status from their

51:32

peers by acting out, that

51:34

sort of thing, getting attention. And

51:37

you have to make sure that they're getting

51:39

the rewards they're seeking when they do the

51:41

good things and not the bad things. And

51:43

that takes discipline on a parent's part. That's

51:45

hard. It's difficult for parents. But the reward

51:47

is you end up with a child who

51:49

is somebody who has productive, positive relationships with

51:52

you and with other people. Abby,

51:54

I think you might be the smartest person I know. And

51:58

I'd like to use that information to note other people.

52:00

That's definitely not true. I mean the

52:02

beauty about being in academia is that

52:04

you're humbled all the time by how

52:06

much everybody around you knows that you

52:09

that you don't know. This

52:11

was a total gift. Thank you so much for doing

52:13

this with me. Oh it's a

52:15

pleasure. The

52:25

ability to really connect with another

52:27

person feels like magic. Where

52:30

do I end? And you begin. Could

52:33

it be that these extraordinary altruists

52:36

know something that we should all remember? That

52:39

we belong to one another in

52:41

a way that spurs them to

52:43

extraordinary acts of compassion and generosity.

52:46

Like people who opt in to getting

52:48

their organs cut out of them for

52:50

complete strangers. Or

52:53

nurses who stay way after their

52:55

shift ends to check in on

52:57

a patient. Or all those

52:59

people who visit a family member long

53:01

after dementia means they don't know who you are

53:04

anymore. Ordinary angels

53:06

among us. The

53:08

ones who recognize fear in themselves

53:10

and others and move toward

53:12

it with compassion. Maybe

53:16

we won't be able to fully answer

53:18

the question of high or low anthropology.

53:20

How good or bad we are

53:22

intrinsically. But research like Abby's comes

53:25

pretty close to understanding this much.

53:28

People are capable of so

53:30

much evil and

53:32

so much good. Sometimes

53:34

it's the way we're wired. How

53:37

big our amygdala's are or how much

53:39

suffering we've encountered that has cracked us

53:41

open to a hurting world. And

53:44

most of us are somewhere in the middle. And

53:47

we could all use a little more. More

53:50

empathy toward the exhausted parents

53:52

with kids who have a difficult diagnosis.

53:55

Toward the teachers stretched beyond their

53:58

technical skills. The

54:00

chaplains who stand bedside by too

54:02

many patients. The

54:04

pastors trying to figure out how to minister in a

54:06

time like this. The

54:08

frontline workers paid so little to

54:11

sacrifice so much. We

54:13

can all develop a bit more compassion

54:15

for people who are dissimilar from us.

54:19

To see people expressing fear or

54:22

distress and move toward

54:24

them. Because

54:26

that is the kind of love that

54:28

makes the world go round. This

54:46

podcast wouldn't be possible without the

54:48

generosity of the Lilly Endowment. A

54:52

huge thank you to my team,

54:54

Jessica Ritchie, Keith Weston, Harriet Putman,

54:56

and JJ Dickinson. So

55:00

fun fact about the podcast world, your

55:02

reviews matter. Would you mind

55:04

taking a minute to write a review on Apple Podcasts?

55:07

It would mean so much. This

55:09

is Everything Happens With Me, Kate

55:12

Bowler. Hey

55:25

everyone, it's David Duchovny. Do you

55:27

ever feel like a failure? Trust

55:29

me, I get it. Hell, I've spent

55:32

my whole life almost feeling like a

55:34

failure. It's appropriate though,

55:36

because on Fail Better, my new podcast

55:39

with Lemon Automedia, exploring

55:41

the world of failure, how it holds us

55:43

back, propels us forward, and

55:45

ultimately shapes our lives is the whole

55:47

point. Each week

55:49

I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors,

55:52

and experts about how

55:54

our perceived failures have actually been our

55:56

biggest catalysts for growth, revelation,

55:59

and even healing. Through

56:01

these conversations, I hope we can learn how

56:03

to embrace the opportunity of failure and

56:06

fail better together. Fail

56:08

better is out now. You can listen ad

56:11

free on Amazon music or wherever

56:13

you get your podcasts. Ex-Mayo

56:17

is a comedian, writer, producer, and when

56:19

it comes to confidently managing her finances,

56:21

she's a beginner. Join her on the

56:23

doh, Lemonado Media's new 10 episode podcast

56:25

series as she dives into better understanding

56:27

the financial trapdoors that any of us

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could fall into. If you've ever

56:32

stayed in a bad relationship to avoid moving out

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costs or found yourself swimming in debt, you're not

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alone. Each week she'll be exploring all

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types of financial flops and money myths that stand

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in the way of our financial freedom. On this

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show, Cash is Queen. We hardly know her, but

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we're determined to be her friend.